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'We are all Gisèle': French women rise up against 'rape culture' during Gisèle Pelicot trial (www.usatoday.com)

submitted 9 months ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

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They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, "one rape every six minutes," "not all men but always a man," and "giving in is not consenting."

They chant: "Rapist we see you, victim we believe you."

Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.

The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over "rape culture" and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.

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[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 31 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:

And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.

I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if 50%of cross-gender rapists are women yet almost 100% of convicted rapists are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.

A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.

[-] blubfisch@discuss.tchncs.de 20 points 9 months ago

I think you are hand-picking numbers here. The most current CDC Report on Intimate Partner Violence does not support your claims. https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf

[-] zaphod@sopuli.xyz 7 points 9 months ago

The report you picked excludes quite a lot of victims as it's about intimite partner violence which it defines as:

The term, intimate partner violence, refers to any physical or sexual violence, stalking, and/or psychological aggression by a current or former dating partner or spouse.

For the full numbers not just for intimate partners you want this report https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsReportonSexualViolence.pdf which confusingly has the same title. It states 2.3% of women raped in a 12 month timeframe and 0.3% of men being raped and 1.3% made to penetrate in the same timeframe, so 1.6% of men either raped or made to penetrate.

[-] bane_killgrind@slrpnk.net 19 points 9 months ago

In the context of this post this is disgusting to bring up.

This doesn't have any bearing on what this old lady was put through.

[-] Ifera@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago

In the context of this comment section, and the image that was chosen to lead the article, it is not disgusting and it simply makes sense.

She is a fucking hero, she is brave and she gives hope to us rape victims. But if on the same breath you praise her and the people who support her, and dismiss a fuckton of rape victims just because the perpetrators of their particular rapes were women, then that is bound to raise a significant level of discomfort and take away from what the story should be, giving support to the victim of The Beast of Avignon and all rape victims, encouraging them to come forward.

[-] bane_killgrind@slrpnk.net 5 points 9 months ago

Go make your own post about male victims then.

[-] pyre@lemmy.world 17 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It's interesting to see why there's a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.

an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes

that's being penetrated, I think it doesn't include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.

side note: I don't know how the article got numbers for "being made to penetrate" specifically, the CDC article doesn't seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting "unwanted sexual contact" in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.

An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.

This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.

An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes

this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women's rate double men's. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.

here's an interesting part about "always a man":

women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.

That sounds like it all comes pretty close to "always a man".

[-] zaphod@sopuli.xyz 5 points 9 months ago

Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story.

How's that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.

side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong.

From the 2011 study in the Results section:

For men, the lifetime prevalence of being made to penetrate a perpetrator was an estimated 6.7% (>7.6 million men), while an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey.

[-] pyre@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago

wow, your argument really becomes impenetrable once you concede to "unless"es and "if" and "should"s.

there is an extended timeline. it's called lifetime. and it tells a different story.

about the stats: thanks for finding it, I mixed the numbers and was looking for the 1.6% ... anyway, looking for lifetime numbers, if you compare women who have been raped vs men who were raped and made to penetrate combined, the numbers add up to 19.3% of women vs 1.7+6.7 = 8.4% of men assuming zero overlap. that's still more than double the rate of men.

in the same section for sexual violence other than rape, women's rates nearly double men's in lifetime numbers. again for some reason much closer in the 12 months preceding.

sexual coercion: 12.5% vs 5.8% lifetime (more than double) and not that close in the 12 months as other categories, 2% vs 1.3% (1.5x approximately)

etc etc...

I don't know what the fuck happened between 2010 and 2011 but the numbers for that year do not reflect lifetime experiences of people at all. it makes no sense to disregard the extended timeline and instead use the snippet to extrapolate.

[-] callouscomic@lemm.ee 9 points 9 months ago

Oddly defensive response you have.

[-] fne8w2ah@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago

So basically, "not all men and not all women" should have been the slogan in the first place.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 5 points 9 months ago

[removed by mod]

[-] petrol_sniff_king 4 points 9 months ago

rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists,

Wow. That was remarkably mask off. You watch a lot of Ben Shapiro, buddy?

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Ben Shapiro is a moron. And so is pretty much anyone who has ever punted the “alpha male” narrative.

What I do, exclusively, is listen to what “feminists” say, and compare it to not only reality, but also how any flip-side examples for men are perceived. From there it is clear that the ideology is one of gender supremacy. There is no other possible interpretation, because there is no equality in their objectives. Any “benefits” that men accrue from feminism are purely by happenstance and lucky accident, but the foundation and exclusive intent of any one incident has always been female-first and almost always to the intentional exclusion of men.

[-] petrol_sniff_king 2 points 9 months ago

And what does that mean, you fill a document with feminist phrases and ctrl+v over every word 'woman' the word 'man'? That is... wow, that is incredibly academic. I'm actually hit-stunned by how smart that is.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 1 points 9 months ago

And what does that mean, you fill a document with feminist phrases and ctrl+v over every word 'woman' the word 'man'? That is... wow, that is incredibly academic. I'm actually hit-stunned by how smart that is.

If that’s the best you can come up with, then you are just as bad as Ben Shapiro.

this post was submitted on 06 Oct 2024

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