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There should be a semicolon punctuation for exclamation and question marks. (self.showerthoughts)
submitted 3 months ago by HEXN3T to c/showerthoughts@lemmy.world
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A difficult part of writing for me is when a single sentence--especially dialogue--contains two tones. It sounds best as a single sentence, but ending with a period, or alternative punctuation, looks wrong. As well as this, using two sentences also looks wrong.

I can't think of a great example right now, but I know I've wanted punctuation that doesn't exist before. I've had moments where it would have been so useful to have a ";!" and a ";?" mark.

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[-] TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world 37 points 3 months ago

I often see this accomplished with dashed interjections - dashes! can you believe that? - as a way to break up a sentence while still continuing with a single train of thought. But I always support the invention of new punctuation, how long has it been since we got any? We're well overdue.

[-] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 13 points 3 months ago

Is the interrobang not enough for you‽

[-] dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 11 points 3 months ago

¡I love the interrobang! But I feel like we need more than just that. ⸘Would it not be fantastic to know the tone of a sentence from the beginning‽

Also, I believe what OP is looking for is something like this image. Sadly, I can't find a keyboard with them, or a copy/pastable line where they've been typed. 1000010473

Would also be useful mixed with the interrobang. The backwards question mark "⸮" is also often used for rhetorical questions. But it's sometimes replaced with ❓because it's easier to type on a phone. ❗Is sometimes used for sarcastic enthusiasm, too, instead of the "official" sarcmark with is apparently copywrited and difficult to parse because it's all swirly and weird, whereas the big red ❗ or ❓ is way more obviously out of place and meant to be noticed, like sarcasm or a rhetorical question.

[-] 418teapot@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I can't find a keyboard with them, or a copy/pastable line where they've been typed

Maybe use combining diacritical marks?

I'm using 0x326 (Combining Comma Below), but you may need the CGJ in there to render correctly in all contexts

e.g.

Foo!̦ Bar?̦

Edit: Combining grapheme joiner, not zero width joiner

[-] dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 1 points 3 months ago

I'm not techy enough to know if that's something I can do on my android or not. Lol. I never use the laptop for anything other than school.

[-] 418teapot@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Ah yeah I don't know how I would do that easily on a phone. Do those in my example above render for you? You should probably be able to just copy/paste them on a phone if they do.

[-] tiefling 6 points 3 months ago

I always enjoy a good interrobang before bed

We're both talking about the same thing right?

[-] HEXN3T 3 points 3 months ago

Writing is as much a form of stylistic expression as any other medium.

[-] dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 21 points 3 months ago

¿Perhaps something like this: 1000010473?

[-] olafurp@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Out of all the additions to punctuation I've seen this is the one I find myself needing most often. Interrobangs are easily written as "?!" and even most other ones can be quick fixed with storytelling like "said lovingly", "said with authority" and whatnot.

But "Is that the best, or is it just what we have?" is an absolutely horrible thing to write punctuation for when you mean it as two connected questions like "Is that the best? Or is it just what we have?"

It should obviously be replaced with a question comma. There are so many cases where you also have the question in the middle of the sentence such as "Is that okay (question comma) because I don't think so..."

[-] dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 months ago

I've thought the same thing many times. I love interrobang (not least of which for it's kickass name), but the same sentiment can be expressed in other ways. Dialogue can convey the others, but if you want to recreate the way humans actually speak English, you need a mid sentence punctuation, like a comma, that can express questioning. Even in speech, we change our intonation to be higher when questioning, and we do that sometimes in the middle of a sentence. It's just not conveyable perfectly with our current set of symbols.

[-] HEXN3T 3 points 3 months ago

Exactly this. If you know what a semicolon and question mark/exclamation point's purpose is, then you know how this punctuation works. The best tool is that which requires no manual at all. Occam's Razor, or something along those lines.

[-] dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 1 points 3 months ago

¡It's immediately, perfectly understandable! :k

[-] Boozilla@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

I've occasionally seen the exclamation mark put inside of parentheses. I interpret it as the writer saying to the reader, "are you seeing this shit?"

Anyway, not sure if that's what you're going for here.

[-] HEXN3T 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I'm only going for a semicolon with tonality. Overall, super simple and straightforward. It uses already existing marks with already established meaning, and provides a useful way to transcribe dialogue.

Why does this not exist;? Something so damned simple!

Edit: It's not related to (!) or (?). I know, since I quite literally just used these a moment ago somewhere else. It is a little similar, but it's different.

[-] Carrolade@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

So, for the record, these things come into existence in the first place simply because someone, somewhere, starts using them. Language is something that drifts over time, and punctuation is no exception.

[-] Hawke@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

It’s a bit harder to do this digitally though since the glyphs aren’t just marks on paper.

[-] pelya@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

I suggest using a ternary operator. At least 10% of Lemmy users will understand this syntax.

[-] j4k3@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

noooo pls don't DRY tun-state-desiccate language with terse-nary cleverness

[-] spittingimage@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

Please, I'm confused enough about what people younger than 30 are trying to say.

[-] Klaymore@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago

Probably in programming communities ? people will understand : people won't understand

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[-] Phoenix3875@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago

They are already invented: 😱 and 😱😱😱

[-] BackOnMyBS@lemmy.autism.place 8 points 3 months ago

Kinda like this sentence?; because it starts off as a question, but I explain it afterwards with a statement.

[-] independantiste@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 months ago

I don't really understand what you mean, do you have examples of how you would use it? Or a scenario where you would need it

[-] HEXN3T 2 points 3 months ago

I have been posting examples under other comments

[-] Reverendender@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago

I’m actually also quite curious

[-] HEXN3T 1 points 3 months ago

I actually just started working on a post, and wouldn't you believe it!

"And that's great;! But nobody's as weird as I am."

The first half is intended to be an exclamation, but the rest of the sentence is spoken neutrally. It can't be split into two as leading a sentence with "but" is bad practice. It just doesn't look right any way.

Ah, if only we had a line above a comma..

[-] Klear@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago

"The older I grow, the less important the comma becomes. Let the reader catch his own breath."
- Elizabeth Clarkson Zwart

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 5 points 3 months ago

Because English needs to be more complex

[-] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 3 points 3 months ago

are you envisioning it as a lighter exlamation, question ??

[-] HEXN3T 1 points 3 months ago

It's just an exclamation or question mark combined with the purpose of a semicolon; Not quite ending a sentence, but also changing the tone midway through. It's situational, but I'd absolutely find it useful.

[-] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 2 points 3 months ago

ok I think I get it. seems as valid as using double question marks or exclamation marks which is kinda common.

[-] Whiskey_iicarus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago

Does this cover what you're asking for, I hope it does?!

[-] HEXN3T 1 points 3 months ago

I use these often, but it doesn't solve a sentence being split into two distinct tones. A "!?" mark is useful for when you're effectively shouting a question, but it's not the instance I'm referring to.

[-] HEXN3T 2 points 3 months ago

I daresay this would be a revolutionary addition to grammar;! What say you?

[-] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

Is a new mark necessary? Just taking out the semicolon does exactly what you want.

Hell, the semicolon was pretty much invented because someone thought "What if I want a compound sentence, but can't decide on a conjunction to put between them?"

How often does anybody use THOSE? (In English, C++ doesn't count)

[-] HEXN3T 2 points 3 months ago

The sentence doesn't have emphasis unless I use italics, which isn't always convenient, or sometimes even possible (writing, software with no formatting).

Also, I use semicolons--and double hyphens, for that matter--quite frequently. I love using them.

[-] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

So, you just like putting wacky symbols in your writing despite grammar?

Just start writing all your posts in l33t speak!

533m5 11k3 7h47 m19h7 83 219h7 up y0u2 4113y!

[-] Strider@thelemmy.club 2 points 3 months ago

1337 5k111z 820.

[-] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

I didn't choose the HaX0r life, the HaX0r life chose me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

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[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 2 points 3 months ago

Italics

[-] HEXN3T 4 points 3 months ago

Have you tried handwriting italics? It's not fun.

[-] spittingimage@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

That's when you underline.

[-] HEXN3T 2 points 3 months ago

And if you're using software that doesn't support formatting?

[-] spittingimage@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

You just said you were handwriting.

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[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 2 points 3 months ago

Switch from block letters to cursive, or vice versa. Or all capitals. Anything that shows a difference.

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this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2024
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