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[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 92 points 5 months ago

Seriously, this kind of stuff is what makes most superhero movies/content so dumb. When they're getting tossed through buildings and causing literally trillions of dollars of damage every fight, while magically not hurting innocents or getting the world pissed at them, it completely removes it from any chance of being even realated to the real world.

Some of the best super hero content is great specifically because they at least attempt to keep things grounded in mortal reality. Unfortunately, the only one I can think of right now that exemplifies it well is the blatantly obvious The Boys.

Hopefully others know of way more/better ones. I know some content creators understand this problem, so there has got to be more than a handful.

[-] BlueLineBae@midwest.social 88 points 5 months ago

I think this is what The Incredibles does very well. It throws you into a world with super heros, makes you think they're cool, then shows you what would actually happen to them when they start "saving" people and smashing up infrastructure. Probably one of the best super hero movies out there.

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 33 points 5 months ago

Yeah except in the modern day they'd have been protected by good Samaritan laws. It makes sense in those circumstances but basically what happened was the heroes getting sued and prosecuted for moving a non-responsive to the side of the road to avoid them getting hit by traffic.

That sounds ridiculous but that's literally an example from China where they don't have those protections. People suing helpful bystanders and arguing that them helping is them taking on responsibility.

Now granted, making 9/11 look like a scheduled demolition (don't crack wise conspiracy nuts) well stretches beyond what those exemptions might be able to cover, BUT, the heroes could get leniency if they can prove that they were trying to take the fight out of the city but the villain was refusing to be taken away from where they could harm civilians.

Man of Steel supes would have a hard time pulling that one off but the actual big blue boyscout would have ZERO trouble getting any legal consequences mitigated this way due to his outstanding record of public service outside of the fights. He probably ASKS the judge to bring the charges to create an opportunity to issue a public apology whenever something like this arises.

[-] makuus@pawb.social 17 points 5 months ago

“Mr. Sansweet didn't ask to be saved. Mr. Sansweet didn't want to be saved. And the injury he received from Mr. Incredible's ‘actions,’ so-called, causes him daily pain…”

It’s this scene—dark as the implications may be—that really drives the point home.

[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 9 points 5 months ago

Nah lmao. If the daily pain is so bad he can just kill himself again. And if he doesn't wanna die anymore, then good job Mr Incredible.

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[-] Tinidril@midwest.social 47 points 5 months ago

The whole plot of the Captain America Civil War movie was built on the impact of collateral damage. For another franchise, The Watchmen movie was full of super hero atrocities and even the destruction of entire cities.

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 23 points 5 months ago

Ehh, I'd say the MCU largely ignored the problem and barely scratched the surface in Civil War. Though The Watchmen did a pretty solid job, given the crazy power levels of some of them.

[-] geissi@sh.itjust.works 11 points 5 months ago

I mean, Watchmen is a criticism of the superhero genre.
It deliberately goes against established tropes.

[-] drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

Only the subject got dropped in favor of a personal drama between heroes. Honestly, they low keyed made Zemo the good guy.

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[-] tomkatt@lemmy.world 18 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I really like Marion G. Harmon’s Wearing the Cape series for this. Hero teams are governmentally regulated, and state or federally mandated, and have to work with local authorities whenever possible, often acting as first responders specifically regarding super villain events. They’re required to plan and mitigate collateral damage. Heroing is literally their job and they have standard and on-call hours, as well as patrols and the like.

Socially heroes and villains are treated kind of like celebrities, and there are sort of unwritten rules about no killing, and no going after civilian identities or people’s families outside of costume as that’s grounds for both villains and heroes to look the other way regarding the aforementioned “No killing” rule.

With the knowledge that villains are hard to impossible to fully stop, emphasis exists on imprisonment and rehabilitation, and over the course of the series some villains and heroes end up changing sides.

There’s one hero in the series who is a federal agent with the ability to replicate clones of himself and is embedded in most hero teams, as well as being secret service, generalized security, and informant as all clones have the knowledge of the rest. Nobody he works with outside of the President of the U.S. even knows how many of him are out there.

On top of this, besides the typical hero teams, there are more “B grade” teams that are not specifically super heroes but act as emergency responders and construction crews for both hero events and fights as well as generalized incidents, and things like heroes without borders that act as global humanitarian aid on a volunteer basis, similar to Doctors Without Borders.

Vigilantes are frowned upon, and can end up liable for crimes as they’re not sanctioned to use their powers to fight.

It’s a very interesting series, and deals with a lot of “real world” consequences of super heroics, including long term injury and death, PTSD and other trauma, and the impact of things like super powered terrorism and extremist groups, as well as anti-super sentiment.

——

Besides that series, I’d also recommend the web serial “Worm” by Wildbow (John McCrae), but that one’s a doozy, both in terms of content (it only goes from bad to worse and things never really get better) and length (it’s absurdly long, maybe equivalent in length to 15-20 full length novels, broken up into fairly long chapters and sections).

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Dang, you've definitrly sold me on that. I'm going to have to check it out. and Worm. Bad to worse sounds quite accurate in a mortal world with sups. lol

[-] tomkatt@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Worm is exactly the kind of chaos that would exist with supers. Attempted mitigation and control, but those with selfish interests and villains often coming out on top, much like those in power and wealth in the real world. WtC has a lighter perspective to tell its story, but Worm is straight up “what if the most horrible person you can think of could also kill with a glance/touch/etc. With no consequence?” And worse. Here there be monsters, quite literally, and humanity is losing the battle.

It’s an absolutely incredible series and I’ve read the whole thing twice at this point, but it’s often very depressing, and the bad can be really bad.

If you want to read Worm there are web scrapers online that can convert it to an ebook format for easier reading, rather than needing to browse the parahumans site.

[-] roguetrick@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

If you want to read Worm there are web scrapers online that can convert it to an ebook format for easier reading, rather than needing to browse the parahumans site.

It's on library Genesis. No need to reinvent the wheel.

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[-] Zorsith 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Worm is one of the few works I've seen with a lengthy, and justified, trigger warning list. For all the authors works, really. Heavy on bio-horror.

https://booktriggerwarnings.com/Worm_by_John_%22Wildbow%22_McCrae

The ending paragraph for Worm hits HARD, and I don't recommend reading the epilogue immediately after it for that reason (it's really more of a prologue for the sequel anyway)

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 14 points 5 months ago

IIRC Marvel has handwaved this through an actual government agency who's job is to fix shit quick. Department of Damage Control IIRC, very steeped in realist humor, and I mean actual school of realism not cult of "wahmenz in super hero movies is unrealistic!"

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

I would say it was commendable, but they ignore it completely when convenient and Civil War barely even scratched the surface of the concept in an actually story-impacting way.

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[-] skyler@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago

Invincible handles consequences pretty well.

One example: At one point Atom Eve uses her powers to turn an empty lot into a playground. But it turns out

spoilerthe lot was empty because the ground was unstable. So the playground collapses and injures several people.

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Yea, Invincible is better than a lot in at least approaching the topic, though I didn't include it because the Global Defence Agency Cecil directs fixes things on a supernatural level. They magically fix up all sorts of things and magically make convincing cover stories, like the house blowing up like a freaking nuke as just a gas leak and the like.

Still nice that they're covering the topic, at least. It's so, SO much worse in the shows that just ignore it. Invincible does a good "meet in the middle": It's not really any big plot point of the show, but they also don't ignore the problems.

[-] ichbinjasokreativ@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

To their defense, the MCU kind of made a whole movie addressing exactly that, back when it was still really good

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[-] nick@midwest.social 7 points 5 months ago

Watch The Boys, it addresses collateral damage.

“Fuck supes”

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

Yea, The Boys is good shit, at least if the crassitude doesn't throw people off.

[-] ValenThyme@reddthat.com 6 points 5 months ago

George R. R. Martin edited a terrific series called Wild Card that is really well grounded. The premise is an alien virus that gives people random mutations and some of them are horrific (the Jokers) but some get fantastic powers (the Aces).

It's pretty gritty and 'realistic' like they really go deep into how the various powers would realistically affect people and be used.

I really liked it up until

Tap for spoilerone of the authors decided that ALL of the abilities and powers were all just forms of telekenesis , really sucked all the fun out of it!

[-] snowsuit2654 5 points 5 months ago

This is also addressed in Hancock (2008).

[-] toynbee@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

Chronicle probably doesn't exactly fit your description, but is an attempt at a more grounded look at superpeople.

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Ohh Chronicle, haven't heard of that one. Going to have to check it out.

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[-] Katana314@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

I mean, most decent superhero movies I see acknowledge inner city chaos to be bad. As soon as a horrible villain starts throwing fireballs, they’re trying to get civilians out, save people amidst chaos, etc.

There’s maybe another conversation to have on property damage; I think there’s not much story there due to the way insurance works. To us, these chaotic battles happen every summer, but in these worlds they’re rare freak occurrences - just like earthquakes.

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Nah, that greatly depends on the universe. For an example of handling it badly, watch ... basically any of the DC universe live-action movies.

They're so bad that Batman regularly mercs people. Y'know, Batman. The guy who canonically takes issue with killing even violent terrorists actively killing others, let alone Security Guard #28201...

Superman gets thrown through buildings, uses laser eyes through buildings, etc, etc, and I shouldn't have to explain how Superman also takes issue with harming at least innocents. They might mention it, but then go on to have the city fight anyways with virtually none of their fighting actions indicating any reluctance...

I do NOT give them points for adding a throwaway line of, "You big meanie! We shouldn't fight in the city!"

[-] Katana314@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

I’m vaguely aware of that, but that’s also why I never really lined up for Zack Snyder movies on release. He has a uniquely ignorant take on those heroes.

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[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 67 points 5 months ago

This is basically the setup for The Boys (except instead of a car it's a person)

[-] stufkes@lemmy.world 26 points 5 months ago

If it weren't for that opening I would not watch the show. Had no idea what it was about, never read the comics. Just saw a video on why Homelander is a great villain and I went to check it out. After that scene it was just "oh wow. There are stakes!"

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[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 15 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

And instead of actually trying to perform a public service, the superhero is

spoilerLooking for drugs

[-] taiyang@lemmy.world 31 points 5 months ago

Insurance companies are benevolent enough to cover that, right? Right?

[-] SomethingBurger@jlai.lu 54 points 5 months ago

"Act of God", get fucked. Also we raised your monthly fee by 50% because, based on previous events, you're more likely than others to have you car Hulk-smashed.

[-] mister_flibble@lemm.ee 18 points 5 months ago

"Act of God"

No, that's just if Thor or Loki smashes your car.

[-] Sidyctism2@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 5 months ago

They pay that out once begrudgingly and then add "act of mutant" to the list

[-] SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 5 months ago

points at a Hawkeye arrow in the windshield

Ugh, fine adds "act of normal guy who is just weirdly good with a bow and arrow" to the list

[-] taiyang@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

Insurance must be through the roof the same way it's gone up the last few years because of higher accident rates globally.

[-] Brunbrun6766@lemmy.world 11 points 5 months ago

I think super heros would probably just crash the insurance market

[-] taiyang@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

Yeah they just stop insuring folks, a real problem lately with Florida and California.

I once played at Iron Man knockoff for a super hero ttrpg. The source of his wealth was shorting insurance companies.

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[-] emil_98@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago

A few years ago i had to get my upper lip sewed back on after a mountain bike accident and the insurance still has not paid for the surgery because a cosmetic surgeon was the only person at the hospital who could do it

[-] Zoomboingding@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

This is the plot of Spiderman Homecoming

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[-] yamanii@lemmy.world 18 points 5 months ago

I really like My Hero Academia for being grounded like that with superheroes having to register and stuff, doing public good beyond fighting, and having Vigilantes that still want to help out but they aren't scouted, because they couldn't get into a proper hero education program on a great spin-off that I would argue is better than the main manga.

[-] drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago

Or when it hits and does absolutely nothing.

[-] CrowAirbrush@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

He just throws it on top of your coworkers cars, so now you can't even carpool the day after.

[-] buzz86us@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

The thing I wonder is why people want to live in NYC in the marvel universe

[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

Wouldn't they come up with some kind of insurance plan for the supers?

Like "Hey the Hulk just used my car as a pair of boxing gloves. Am I covered?"

[-] Liz@midwest.social 13 points 5 months ago

Seeing as how the cops can cause collateral damage and be completely unaccountable, yeah, no. You ain't getting shit.

(We should totally end qualified immunity though.)

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this post was submitted on 05 Jun 2024
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