280

I'm not sure if this is the right community for this question, but it says "no stupid question" so here goes. I'm an Israeli who now lives in the US, but I am considering permanently residing in the US or elsewhere (perhaps somewhere in Europe or Canada) because I've become kinda disillusioned with Israel for a variety of reasons (the war in Gaza being one of them, the erosion of democracy by Likud being another, and etc) but is that cowardly to leave? Should I go back and try to change society or should I just leave for good? Thanks for your time.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] tigerjerusalem@lemmy.world 142 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I'll go against the grain and give you a straight answer.

Yes. You should leave Israel and never go back.

You owe nothing to your country. If you have the possibility to live in a good European country, do it. You're no martyr. You're not billionaire rich. And unless you're a really high rank offcial, an important politician, or want to sacrifice your entire life to a cause, you have no reason to waste your short life in pain.

We're in a silly blue rock between a billion trillion systems, none of which care about you. Your existence is not even a blimp in the context of the universe. You're not important at all. So why waste and suffer on behalf of a thing you have absolutely no control? Be happy, be comfortable, and make those around you happy and comfortable.

Life is pretty hard already, there's no need to make it harder. Go and be happy.

Quick addendum: I'm not saying that because its Israel. I'm saying that in the context of any country. You owe nothing to it, a piece of land that you manage to be birthed on by being really lucky or unlucky. If you can rectify that and move to a better country to you, you should do it instead of suffering.

[-] ashkenaziisraeli@lemmy.world 33 points 5 months ago

You make some very good points, giving me something to think about. Thanks

[-] Orbituary@lemmy.world 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

To add to their point, I live in the USA. I speak 4 languages. My girlfriend is Mexican and has dual citizen status in Mexico and Chile. The US is fucked, but not in the same ways exactly. That being said, I'm ashamed of our behavior every day.

The USA is not a moral northstar nor is it a place to aspire to live unless you're in dire straights.

We plan to move to Chile at some point. I can maintain my US job.

Fuck false loyalty to nationality. Live for yourself and your loved ones. Everything else is farse. Life has no borders.

[-] Sensitivezombie@lemmy.zip 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

This, unfortunately, is a very individualistic view. We as a society must strive to be a collective and bring prosperity and success to the mass and not the few at the cost of the masses.

This can only happen if we all work together to change the governance and economic systems in our individual countries. It has nothing to do with being a martyr for your country or national pride. It has everything to do with working to bring a better world for us and the future generation.

We can do this, by organizing, educating, and agitating. Joining local organization around this cause is a great start.

Israel means nothing, nor does the US, UK, Russia, etc. These are simply labels created through territorial disputes, nationalism, imperial and colonialism. No one owes anything to these silly labels and their entitlements and propaganda. But, it is only rational that we work to make our own communities a better place by ensuring everyone has an equal opportunity and the wealth generated belongs to us not the few who want nothing more than to keep the status quo. Leaving the community behind for your own better future is self-serving and individualistic view. The notion of only look out for yourself, individualism, is a recent phenomenon in human history, a symptom of the first industrial revolution and capitalism.

Yes, do what makes you happy and live your life the way you want, but not at the cost of the struggle of your community and society at large.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] oakey66@lemmy.world 97 points 5 months ago

As a Russian Jew who fled the Russia in the 1980s, my family moved for our safety and opportunity. Countries don't deserve reverence just for being countries. We can be proud of our heritage without having to show allegiance to a nation state. Especially, when it is using our ethnicity/religion to brutally wipe out and massacre a civilian population.

Just do what is best for you and your family.

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 92 points 5 months ago

That's a question only you can answer. Answering these questions might help you make a decision though.

Do you think Israel's future is worth fighting for?

Do you have an ability to leave again in the future?

Can you legally vote in Israeli elections without being in Israel?

Are you giving up personal opportunities that are important to you?

Asking other people outright is just going to tell you what other people want you to do.

[-] Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee 37 points 5 months ago

If you go back will you be forced to fight in the Israeli army? (Deal breaker as far as I'm concerned)

[-] altima_neo@lemmy.zip 69 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

There's certainly nothing "cowardly" about leaving. Live where you feel comfortable being. Wherever you feel happy.

[-] magnetosphere@fedia.io 41 points 5 months ago

Regardless of your decision, I think you deserve credit just for seriously considering the issues involved.

[-] ashkenaziisraeli@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago

Thank you :)

[-] FaizalR@kbin.social 7 points 5 months ago

Second this.

[-] DerisionConsulting@lemmy.ca 20 points 5 months ago

If your wish to change things is the only thing that makes you want to go back, be honest with yourself, do you actually have the ability to change anything?

[-] Microplasticbrain@lemm.ee 19 points 5 months ago

My family left Iran before I was born and I'm grateful they did. What could we have done to change the country from within? Unfortunately nothing.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 16 points 5 months ago

So of course in the end it should come down to what you want to do and where you see yourself living a happier life, and not what people on the internet think you should do. However, purely from a "making the world a better place" perspective, I'd recommend not returning. I get the idea of trying to change society from within, but frankly I think Israel in its current state is beyond saving. The sense of invincibility, among other issues, is too much for simple activism to fix; the country as a whole needs the Nazi Germay treatment (the de-Nazification part, not the war part). At least by not being in Israel you make sure your tax money and children aren't used in genocide.

I repeat, do what you feel is best for you, but to directly answer your question your absence does more to weaken the Israeli Apartheid apparatus than your presence. Do vote though; definitely vote.

[-] kava@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

I think Israel in its current state is beyond saving

I think the fundamental issue with Isreal is that it was started as an ethnostate with the national religion explicitly endorsing their own population as "special" and "chosen by God".

That ideology would never be compatible with a modern cosmopolitan liberal democratic society. All races and religions and people should be of equal worth. Any ideology that views itself as somehow special would always degenerate to apartheid and brutality.

Add in the fact that Jews are some of the smartest and most industrious people on the planet and you have a very dangerous country. You mix willingness and capacity and you get action- what we are seeing in Gaza today, and really what we've been seeing for decades.

I guess that is a long winded way to say, I agree. Israel in its current manifestation cannot be saved. It would require a total deconstruction of their ideology and to be frank, that probably isn't happening anytime soon.

Maybe after WW3.

[-] Chev@lemmy.world 15 points 5 months ago

The only thing you can actually change is yourself.

[-] Xeroxchasechase@lemmy.world 26 points 5 months ago

That's a huge NOPE. You can organize, unionize, fight

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] TheWoozy@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago

Holy defeatism, Batman!

[-] OutlierBlue@lemmy.ca 5 points 5 months ago

I changed my bed sheets on the weekend. Check mate.

[-] recursive_recursion@programming.dev 12 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

to ask questions even while anxious is something to be commended on especially since you aren't sure about what the right choices could be

I think it's actually brave to ask for help especially in difficult situations such as the one you're in

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius


Should I go back and try to change society or should I just leave for good?

This brings back memories from a well known anime called Code Geass where 2 of the characters have a debate on whether change can either be born from within the system or if it must be made externally

  • Lelouch vs Suzaku

Personally I'd say it's external but I don't know if this is closest to the truth of the perfect solution

From recent historical records like Hong Kong and Ukraine🌻 vs Russia

  • brain drain is a real thing and it seems that to continue living under oppression and subjugation is probably the worst if not wrong decision as you'd be unintentionally sacrificing yourself for a corrupt authority

change is probably a mix of both internal and external

  • but to continue living in an state of eroding democracy might be more detrimental than benefical to most
  • as I'm writing this, I find it funny that this could be said the same for the fediverse here
load more comments (1 replies)
[-] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 11 points 5 months ago

Well, I don't have an emotional response to the shit going on there, so take this with that in mind.

There's a few sides to your decision.

First, can you actually do anything? You've said no in other comments, so I assume that stays the same. It means that you aren't morally obligated to go back for that reason. If you did have either current influence, or could realistically gain influence, to enact change within a reasonable time frame (say, under a decade), you might have that moral obligation. Might. But you don't, so it's personal choice.

Second, without an obligation to return, would it benefit you to go back? Do you have deep family ties? Do you have an established career? Do you have property that would need liquidating? If any of that is true, then the equation shifts to going back at least temporarily, and hoping things change, or that you can get out again later.

Third, are you sure anywhere else will take you? Long term visas or resident status aren't exactly a guarantee, and immigration isn't either. You'd need a plan, and at least a vague idea of what nation you want to settle in.

When it comes right down to it, the situation over there isn't something most people would want to return to. That situation isn't likely to resolve in the next year or two. So staying out makes sense if you can manage it. Jumping off a sinking ship isn't a bad thing, and doing so earlier makes it less likely you get sucked down with it. It seems you think Israel is going down. If that's the case, and you can't prevent it, the sooner you make the semi permanent move away, the better.

Now, it is generally true that if everyone that could resist bad actions leaves a place, change becomes impossible. But there's also the reality that not everyone that could resist really can. We're not all cut out to fight governments and society. Not even passively. Hell, the older I get, the less I'm even willing to do because at some point, it's meaningless.

But I gotta warn you, there's no place on earth without problems. Right now, any major country is fucking with something very nasty. The U.S. is having our own struggle with fascism and oligarchy, and that's also at least partially the case for Europe too. Canada is facing it, though it seems their government isn't actively pursuing crimes against humanity. It isn't just the western world, don't think I'm saying that; that's just where you mentioned wanting to settle. You simply aren't going to land anywhere you mentioned and be in a country free of horrible actions.

[-] ashkenaziisraeli@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

Yeah all good points. I guess it just seems like the rest of the West is still doing better than Israel.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] RedSuns@lemm.ee 4 points 5 months ago

I couldn’t have said this better. This is the best insightful response so far IMO.

OP I sincerely wish you well in whatever choice and/or path in life you take.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] stanleytweedle@lemmy.world 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Should I go back and try to change society or should I just leave for good?

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference"

I can't tell you what to do but I can tell you that getting out of a bad situation you had no hand in creating doesn't make you a coward, it just means you're rational.

[-] ashkenaziisraeli@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago
[-] BassTurd@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

No. Nobody owes their country of origin, shit. They don't care about you at all. They don't care about their own people. If you can flip a switch and make it better, do it, but don't sacrifice your life, literally or figuratively, for a cause you can't change.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago

There is no changing a society built upon colonization. Many have tried.

If you have the opportunity to go to Europe or Canada that is definitely a more ethical choice.

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 25 points 5 months ago

There is no changing a society built upon colonization.

Europe or Canada

[-] Steak@lemmy.ca 4 points 5 months ago
load more comments (5 replies)
[-] ExIsraeliAnarchist@kbin.social 10 points 5 months ago

I was lucky enough to have dual nationality and left many years ago, but then I always knew I would because I never felt like I fit in there, so I have no regrets, except for not leaving sooner - before the army would have been better, but I wasn't able too get out of it.

Be prepared though - life as an immigrant and a foreigner can have it's own challenges, as can being a Jew outside of Israel, and the "grass" - the political and social aspects of life might be different, but it isn't necessarily greener - fascism is on the rise more or less everywhere you go, as is the cost of living.

You only get one life, as long as you aren't harming anyone - do what's best for you, and remember that to create a better society the workers of the world need to unite, so it doesn't matter where you are physically, you can and should still be part of a force for change.

I don't want to give too much personal information, but if you have any questions, I can do my best to answer.

[-] NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth 9 points 5 months ago

You should choose whatever lets you sleep best at night.

[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 9 points 5 months ago

Explain to me what you think you, an individual, would do to "change society" in Israel?

[-] asdfasdfasdf@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

Ultimately a society is composed of many individuals. We all play a small part in its change.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] cerement@slrpnk.net 8 points 5 months ago

second (third (fourth)) the comments this being a personal choice

but “thanks” (/s) to the diasporas, you don’t have to limit your options to just the US (or Europe) – there are Jewish communities solidly established all over the world (your limit will be your language skills more than anything else)

[-] ashkenaziisraeli@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

I speak Spanish as well as English and Hebrew, so I guess there's always Argentina or Chile.

[-] cerement@slrpnk.net 4 points 5 months ago

(off topic: if you want to use your Spanish and get in some historical tourism, hit up southern Spain – the areas that were under Moorish control)

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] scytale@lemm.ee 8 points 5 months ago

You don't owe anything to a country just because you were born there, unless you owe taxes, which is inevitable lol. I left my home country for better opportunities and (hopefully) a better life. For most people, uprooting yourself and moving to another country for good is a once-in-a-lifetime chance/opportunity, so take that into account. Good luck.

[-] TheBananaKing@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

Leave. If nothing else, you'll get to call yourself Wasraeli.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 6 points 5 months ago

I have nothing nice to say about the state of Israel, but as an individual you owe it to yourself to live wherever you can that you will be happiest. I can think of reasons to leave the US, including its support for Israel, but I know I would be unhappy anywhere else and my leaving wouldn't change anything.

From what I understand, the situation in Israel seems especially bad lately. I do not blame any Israeli for wanting to get out or not go back.

[-] JackLSauce@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

Nobody can answer this question for you but I think to the countless examples of people not "getting out while they can" who are now--or were until their death--forever trapped in a bad situation that people today forget wasn't that bad even within living memory

Is it right for you? I don't know

Is it cowardly to let a sense of national loyalty compel you to be exposed to the mechanisms of government wielded by untrustworthy actors? No, and anybody saying otherwise is lying to you at best; lying to themselves at worst

Inb4 any what aboutisms: nothing I've said here is specific to any country

[-] BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

You need to decide what you want from your life. It is not your responsibility to "fix" Israel. If you feel truly passionate about it then go for it.

But if you're worried about this out of a vague sense of guilt or responsibility then park it. You get one life to live - don't waste it doing something your don't want to do or are not passionate about. Live a good life and strive for happiness, and try to be kind and good to those you meet on the journey - that is all that can be asked of anyone.

[-] lurch@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 months ago

i personally think whoever still lives in israel or palestine and maybe even has kids there, after 80 years of conflict, is crazy. it's basically "the badlands" and i think you should cut ties and settle down in a safer environment.

i don't think the US or Canada is the perfect place to live, but it's definitely better and safer than israel. i think EU, New Zealand, Australia and Britain would be even better, but you already live in the US and moving to another nation is often a lot of work, so maybe it's best to stay there. The differences in quality of life are very small IMO.

[-] ExIsraeliAnarchist@kbin.social 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to just get up and move country? Or to try to immigrate from a war zone to a developed country? Have you seen how the (especially non white/european) people who try are being treated??
As an ex-Israeli I was lucky enough to be able to do it many many years ago because I have dual nationality and family elsewhere I was able to depend on, but most Israelis, never mind Palestinians, don't have either, or the money to be able to afford to move, or a country that will allow them in.
Check your privilege.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] ashkenaziisraeli@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

Yeah I gave birth to a son here in the US, which I think is a better environment for him than Israel personally.

[-] blargerer@kbin.social 4 points 5 months ago

You need to do whats best for yourself, but it sounds like Israel would be a better place with your voice in it.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] _______@poeng.link 3 points 5 months ago

I've quit jobs due to ethical disagreements, I'm sure I'd leave my home country if things got too bad. It wouldn't be the country i grew up in anyways.

You do you, people will both agree and disagree with you no matter what you chose.

load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 26 May 2024
280 points (100.0% liked)

No Stupid Questions

35776 readers
858 users here now

No such thing. Ask away!

!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others' questions on various topics.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)


Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.

All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.



Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.



Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.



Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That's it.



Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.



Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.

On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it's in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.

If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.



Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.

If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.



Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.



Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.



Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.



Credits

Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!

The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS