Trump being worse deosn't mean we can't criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.

Like they aren't even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes, but Republican voters pretty much ALWAYS vote, and they vote R down the whole ticket. A large portion of people who vote for Democrats only show up to vote if there is someone they can get excited about. Establishment Dems should consider this a law of the universe; it simply is the way it is. Instead of continuously trying to bully these people into showing up to vote (which has the opposite effect) maybe they should start asking what would get these people excited to vote for Joe. And then get Joe to do those things.

They act like everyone owes them a vote. They don't. They are asking for something from the left, they need to start negotiating in good faith and expect to have to give something in return. Doing anything less than whatever it takes to get people to vote for Joe should be considered them trying to lose and get Trump elected again.

Sounds like Biden and the Dems should be trying pretty hard to get young people and progressives to show up this year... Maybe calling them "dipshits" isn't an effective tactic? In fact, I would say this is the kind of thing that turns people off from giving a shit.. Are you TRYING to get Trump elected? How about instead of bullying the voters you're trying to convince to do what you want them to do, you could try putting that pressure on the Dems to start doing what it takes to get people to show up and vote

The simplest way to "stop Trump" is for Biden to stop supporting Israel's genocide and yet the Democratic Party sock puppets never ever demand that Biden stops supporting Israel's genocide and instead it's everybody else who is to blame for the increasing likelihood that Trump won't get stopped even while Biden doesn't shift an inch on his position.

It's quite the "curious" take that Biden shouldn't have to stop supporting genocide even to "stop Trump" and instead it's everybody else who has a moral obligation to vote for a shamelessly committed genocide supporter to "stop Trump".

The whole thing has a heavy heavy stink of "the boss is always right and you have to support the boss or else" of both Dictatorships and Criminal Organisations.

If they're wasn't blame to be directed at democrats we wouldn't be directing it at them

To democrats in government, pull your heads out of your asses And stop supporting the genocide

I couldn't make you people any more apathetic if I tried, Jesus

I mean its barely about what people here think.

Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn't mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don't support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@PugJesus@lemmy.world ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.

The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn't work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.

So what if you've been convinced that its OK for Biden do a little genocide? The whole god-damned point is that other people don't believe the same thing you do, and if you actually want to stop Trump you really only have two options. You can either try to convince voters that a little genocide is acceptable if its coming from Democrats, or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.

Its far more sensible to bring your criticisms to the Democrats in showing that you wont vote for them if they don't shift their positions on Gaza, than it is to engage in a demonstrable failure of an approach to rhetoric to try and shame people into voting for a only slightly less supportive of genocide candidate.

You can move a politician. Every election cycle politicians move positions. I mean fucking hell, look how far the left was able to drag Biden last election cycle! He basically went from a Republican slate of policy positions to something actually on the left. He didn't do this his own; he did this to get elected because that's what the voters wanted. Biden can be moved on this, but blaming voters, especially when you know they are on the right side of the issue, is setting 2024 up for disaster.

This is such a weird strawman

Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell. I saw somebody who was in favor of it a couple days ago, which makes 2 users I have ever seen.

So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I'm never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it's exactly what he wanted

Then a second whole bunch of people said hey every single one of those things except part of the last one isn't true, also, Trump is worse on the genocide piece

And so now the first people are insisting that what the second people said was, "Don't criticize support for genocide". That wasn't the point. The fact that a good bit of what the people in the first group are saying, is wrong, means they get people disagreeing with them, which always gets misrepresented as some lunatic pro-genocide silencing of criticism. But it's pretty much never a message of "please stop criticizing my genocide guy otherwise Trump might win."

If you want to express urgency about helping the Palestinians, please do so. Send messages to your congresspeople. Vote "uncommitted." Go to a protest. Tell Biden he'll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z). Any of those things, or something else. Sounds great.

I think the thing you're hearing is more "I want to end genocide just as much as you do, now let's talk about how to do it, and also yes how to avoid one that's 10 times worse that depending on how we go about it might be one of the possible outcomes." I don't see why that would be frustrating to hear. And I don't think it's at all the same as "please stop criticizing Biden that's not allowed" or anything like that. Most of the threads on this topic have their most upvoted comment as "Jesus Christ I wish he wouldn't do that" or something along those lines; this fiction where criticizing Biden for enabling this genocide is at all unpopular is not at all the reality.

I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.

Actually, one of them weighed in on Lemmy on this exact narrative, where people are using his dead relatives to justify this one very particular political stance about being reluctant to vote for Joe Biden (and for some reason not to justify getting involved in some electoral or non-electoral way to actually help his relatives who are still alive). He wasn't about it.

Criticize all you want. I certainly do. But understand at the end of the day that as pathetically little as Biden is doing to help, he isn't doing literally zero. Allowing Trump to win is objectively voting for MORE genocide, and in fact, the end of any potential for a Palestinian state in any form. None of this is secret - none of this is speculation. If people would take 15 minutes and read the ACTUAL Trump middle eastern peace plan that he ACTUALLY PUT FORTH when he was president, it's pretty obvious he would allow MUCH MUCH worse than Biden without batting an eye.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan

There is no room for argument on that. Is Biden bad for Palestinians and allowing genocide? Yes. Would allowing Trump to win be WORSE? Yes. You're upset that angry wolves are eating someone, and you should be. But the solution is not replacing them with angry bears.

Watch LGBTQ+ people get genocided right here in America because lefties decided not to vote against Fascism. Remind us again that you didn't vote against it when that happens and see how people react.

The great thing is you don't have to wait! They're doing it now.

While I agree with you, it's very disingenuous to label everyone you disagree with a Russian bot on this matter. And people are very well in their right to criticize Biden for his political stance. Some people have family members that died in Palestine. You can't expect them to jump with joy at the thought of voting for Biden.

Why do people keep framing it like it's either genocide or fascism? Do people just give Trump a free pass because he's upfront about letting Isreal go scorched earth on Gaza? It's genocide or genocide and fascism. It doesn't matter who you vote for, America is going to support genocide either way. What you're voting for is either democratic leader supporting genocide or a fascist leader supporting genocide.