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submitted 5 months ago by mox@lemmy.sdf.org to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[-] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 122 points 5 months ago

This is not a hill I'd want to die on, but I do understand thinking this photo is fine. If I hadn't been told it was from Playboy, I wouldn't give it a second thought. It's a conventionally-attractive woman in a hat showing a little shoulder. I wouldn't be upset over Michaelangelo's David either. It is less sexual than like 90% of modern TV or mass-market advertising. I suspect a similar image of "cleaner" provenance would not garner much attention at all, honestly.

But it is weird that an image from such a source was chosen in the first place. It is understandable that it makes people uncomfortable, and it seems like there should be no shortage of suitable imagery that wouldn't, so...easy sell, I'd think.

On a related note, boy oh boy am I tired of every imagegen AI paper and project using the same type of vaguely fetishized portraits as examples.

[-] stoly@lemmy.world 30 points 5 months ago

Apparently the team making the first scanner needed a good test photo and that was the best they had on hand at that moment in terms of color variation and intensity.

[-] HarkMahlberg@kbin.social 56 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Which is still weird.

Alexander Sawchuk, then an assistant professor of electrical engineering at the University of Southern California ... along with a graduate student and the SIPI lab manager, was hurriedly searching the lab for a good image to scan for a colleague's conference paper. ... Just then, somebody happened to walk in with a recent issue of Playboy. The engineers tore away the top third of the centerfold so they could wrap it around the drum of their Muirhead wirephoto scanner...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna

Everything about the story sounds like it was a rush job, a decision made on a whim, after exhausting their existing catalog of test images. And who bring a Playboy mag to their university's computer lab, and advertises their possession? They don't even say who it was, probably to protect them from any embarrassing professional consequences. To me, that's probably the strongest reason to retire it: it's unprofessional.

[-] dankm@lemmy.ca 39 points 5 months ago

And who bring a Playboy mag to their university's computer lab, and advertises their possession?

Probably a random grad student. They were just coming out of the "sexual revolution" of the 60s at that point. It'd be a lot weirder ten years earlier or ten years later.

That a similar thing did happen ten years earlier is the weird part, I think.

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[-] frezik@midwest.social 23 points 5 months ago

There's a bit more to the scan. You usually see the cropped version, but the full version has naughty bits. Not sure if it's ever been published that way in journals.

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[-] lud@lemm.ee 111 points 5 months ago

Here is an uncropped version of the image: [NSFW] https://mypmates.club/1972/Miss-November/Lena-Soderberg

Considering this it's more understandable that it's controversial.

[-] antidote101@lemmy.world 16 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Some people are triggered by nudity. On another timeline the conclusion of this "scandal" would be to include a retro photo of a naked dude in the test image data set (and maybe also switch Lena's photo if she doesn't want it in there anymore).

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 16 points 5 months ago

I don't think the reason this is an issue is because it's pornographic. It's because it indicates a certain opinion that some people in the field had/have. Even in professional academic papers they were using a pornographic image of a woman, which shows their opinion of women is just as object to lust after.

[-] antidote101@lemmy.world 16 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Yes and I'm saying in a more sexually open society we'd just admit that people lust after people of all genders, and include some others in the data set.

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[-] Eggyhead@kbin.run 72 points 5 months ago

A lot of people in this thread have a lot of really strong opinions without actually reading the article. The model was cool with it, but she herself also thinks it’s time to retire the photo from how it’s being used in image processing, where it likely isn’t even necessary in the first place. Respect her on that. I seriously doubt she cares if it remains accessible on the web for the pervs worrying about censorship. It’ll still be there if you desperately don’t want to lose your opportunity to take a gander.

[-] dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net 27 points 5 months ago

There’s a value to having a standard image or images that are used to assess compression algorithms’ performance. It could just as easily be a picture of a bouquet of flowers, or a bunch of puppies.

There’s also value in not basing your image compression algorithm on a low resolution scan of a magazine from the 1970s.

[-] HaywardT@lemmy.sdf.org 14 points 5 months ago

Seems like this is a much more important than any of the other discussions going on. How many results were tainted by the fact that they were compressing a dithered print image.

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[-] SnotFlickerman 55 points 5 months ago

Fucking jesus christ it only took 50 years for it to happen.

And people wonder why women don't feel welcome in these disciplines.

[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 81 points 5 months ago

It's not like they were using the uncropped centerfold. There's nothing wrong with the headshot. It's a woman in a hat.

[-] ExcursionInversion@lemmy.world 36 points 5 months ago

But the image is from a photoshoot for playboy so its inherently dirty and offensive, even if they only use the cropped version. /s

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[-] Womble@lemmy.world 46 points 5 months ago

I mean, the model in question was quoted as recently as 2019 as saying she had no problem with it, so hardly 50 years.

[-] SnotFlickerman 24 points 5 months ago

Maybe the mousey girl in class might get uncomfortable knowing its from a porn mag when it's thrown up on the big screen for the class to see? Maybe it's about more than just Lena herself? Maybe women don't feel comfortable going in those spaces because they feel like they'll be sexualized or worse. Why wouldn't they expect that when the men involved think its totally appropriate to use the top-half of a nude photo of a woman?

[-] SharkAttak@kbin.social 24 points 5 months ago

Well if Mousey Mina feels squeamish seeing a bare shoulder then I think the problem is elsewhere.. literally feels like much ado for nothing.

[-] SnotFlickerman 20 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I love for you that what you just said is literally the definition of what I'm talking about. Attitudes like "well what's her problem" are why women don't want to be in STEM fields. You even immediately came up with a diminutive nickname for her, to make sure this woman would feel chided and demeaned. Stay classy.

[-] JJROKCZ@lemmy.world 20 points 5 months ago

Anyone that gets worked up at the sight of a human shoulder needs to reasses themselves, regardless of gender

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[-] wjrii@lemmy.world 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

While that should certainly be a bright line, it's more that from the very beginning of computer graphics, the "perfect" image for testing algorithms and showing off and laboring over and analyzing is a Playboy centerfold. I don't imagine most of those computer scientists would have been nearly as accepting of a photo with "high contrast and varied detail" if it had been a naked dude hanging dong [EDIT: or cropped from such a pic]. It was used specifically because they liked it and thought that anyone who didn't feel the same needed to stay in their lane and STFU because this is "normal" and fine but any other type of sexual material wouldn't be.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 23 points 5 months ago

I don't imagine most of those computer scientists would have been nearly as accepting of a photo with "high contrast and varied detail" if it had been a ~~naked dude hanging dong~~ headshot of a male model

FTFY. If you're going to make a comparison, don't be fucking dishonest about it.

[-] wjrii@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago

Fine, a headshot of a male model cropped from a Playgirl centerfold and making bedroom eyes and visibly shirtless, because it was a shot from a spank mag, and then justified as an ongoing thing because it's such a "perfect" image.

It was obscure and tame enough to last for a long time, but it was always creepy and its continued use as a quasi-official test pattern said more about the tech community than people would like to admit.

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[-] atx_aquarian@lemmy.world 13 points 5 months ago

Yeah, I remember learning about it in a CS class and, specifically, the claim that it's an ideal standard candle kind of image. I always wondered if we couldn't have found a better reference shot of a smooth flower growing in front of a rough stone or something.

[-] SnotFlickerman 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I don’t imagine most of those computer scientists would have been nearly as accepting of a photo with “high contrast and varied detail” if it had been a naked dude hanging dong.

No shit, but apparently all the fellas in this thread seem to think it would have totally been the same. Either that or they just continue to ignore that as an option.

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[-] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 24 points 5 months ago

I don't think it would be in humanity's best interest for scientific journals to be in the habit of quickly banning research just because someone has uncomfortable associations with a safely cropped photo (or a drawing, or a quote). Perhaps it makes sense in this particular case, after careful consideration. I hope it's an exceptional case. Censorship is a slippery slope.

[-] SnotFlickerman 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Censorship is a slippery slope.

So I take it you think the Washington Commanders should have stayed the Washington Redskins because not censoring is more important than it being disrespectful to a large group of people? My eyes would fall out if they rolled any harder.

No one's censoring the history or saying it never happened, we're just saying "Maybe there's a better, less controversial image to use for this purpose." Which really shouldn't be a very controversial take at all.

It's not like you can't see the old Redskins logo on Wikipedia, or that the Wikipedia entry for the Lenna image would disappear. That would be censorship, not this. This is just "don't use this controversial image in professional documents like science research." Literally, specifically, IEEE journals.

[-] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 14 points 5 months ago

Since you obviously feel strongly about this issue, you might consider your bias as a reason to read more carefully. Please don't put words in my mouth.

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[-] mihies@kbin.social 15 points 5 months ago

TBH from article it seems that woman on photo (Forsén) decided that's enough of sharing her photo.

[-] yetAnotherUser@feddit.de 13 points 5 months ago

Yeah, you're right.

But I'm a little optimistic. The image being widely used for decades is a symptom, not the cause of women being unwelcome.

With it being finally banned, it seems like this is changing. Hopefully this means the root cause, misogyny in tech, is at an all time low.

[-] SnotFlickerman 12 points 5 months ago

Fully agreed, it was a symptom of a larger problem, not the problem itself. I hope in professional circles this trend continues.

[-] Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org 42 points 5 months ago

This is kinda interesting. I work in this field and have seen that image show up all the time in papers but never knew the origins.

I think it's the right move to ban it and I'm surprised there's so many people defending it. This isn't about censorship or being a prude or anything like that. It's just a bit weird that it's from a playboy and if you can't understand how that would make some people uncomfortable then you might be a bit lacking in empathy.

The 3d world has Utah teapots and Stanford bunnies and dragons which are all very neutral and don't hurt anyone. Perhaps we can move on and use some less alienating pictures for image processing papers, too.

[-] wewbull@feddit.uk 25 points 5 months ago

I think it's nice to have traditions inside areas of research, and if somebody said "let's retire the Utah teapot. It's too simple a construct and has no bearing anymore" I'd be opposed.

Similar with "Lenna". Is it a good test image? Not anymore, but if somebody wants to include it as tradition then let them. It hurts no one. Nobody is making money off it. Most people just know it as an image that's been in many seminal graphics papers they want to emulate, but even if they do know it as being from an issue of Playboy, why is that a problem?

I'm not angry about it. I'm not going to die on any hill about it. I just see it as pointless and infantile for the IEEE to refuse papers over something so trivial.

[-] Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org 17 points 5 months ago

The issue was that it did make some people uncomfortable, so it was harmful. You can't just ignore the reasons stated and then say it's pointless. The ban didn't come out of nowhere.

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[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 32 points 5 months ago

Forsén is quoted as saying, "I retired from modelling a long time ago. It’s time I retired from tech, too. We can make a simple change today that creates a lasting change for tomorrow. Let’s commit to losing me."

Since Lena herself decided she wanted to retire the image, I don't have any qualms with them not accepting new papers using it. It's really weird that her "big break" came from scientific papers, of all things.

I do wonder, however, if more recent papers (2010 and forward) using that image were doing so as reference to older papers, or entirely contained to their own research.

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[-] kratoz29@lemm.ee 21 points 5 months ago

Huh, I am sorry, I feel too dumb but I don't want to live with the doubt, I read the article and the Wikipedia links and I still don't know how this is a thing, this is the first time I know about it.

What exactly was the meaning of this image in the tech fields? "What image processing tests"?

I understand the model is tired of it already, but this won't disappear from the Internet, how is this article gonna benefit her?

[-] doggle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 5 months ago

Computers are dumb and need to be told how to take the data of an image (stored as a long series of 1s and 0s in memory) and draw it on the screen so you can see it. The people writing the software to do that needed an image to test with, just to make sure everything was working right.

Either because they were a bunch of lonely geeks in the 70s or they didn't have any other good photos to scan in, they used a headshot of a PlayBoy model. They couldn't have known that it would effectively become one of the first digital memes, meaning it's still semi-frequently used by graphics programmers (professionals and enthusiasts).

I can't claim to speak on the model's motives, but it's not hard to imagine that having their headshot used in perpetuity without consent would make someone uncomfortable.

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[-] Flipper@feddit.de 15 points 5 months ago

https://youtu.be/yCdwm2vo09I

Here you go. A full explanation of everything.

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[-] umbraroze@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago

Basically, people working on graphics-related algorithms needed to build a library of standard test images, so that when people published their work in an academic journal, they could easily demonstrate what that algorithm does, in a manner that is fairly obvious to anyone who is familiar with the image.

So someone, when they needed to pick an image that represents a person, scanned this photograph. And it could be argued that at the time, it was probably an interesting test image for a lot of reasons: person vs background, different textures, areas with soft and sharp focus, etc etc. If you developed, say, an image compression algorithm, those things are going to be headache in all photo portraits.

It's probably not the best image by modern standards (being a low resolution scan of a photograph off of a printed magazine - not a photo print scan, not a direct film scan, and not comparable to digital photography). Also, it's gotten overused to the point of absurdity. (Oh your hot new face detection algorithm works on this image? Well whoop-de-do.)

[-] reddithalation@sopuli.xyz 13 points 5 months ago

i think i've seen it used to demo different image compression algorithms, things like that. it was used as an easy example test image, but this journal has now banned papers from using it because it is weird and creepy to be using cropped porn for that. this won't benefit the model, but she was only pushing to ban it because she wants more women in IT fields.

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[-] Libertus@lemmy.world 21 points 5 months ago

Right... Let's eliminate every instance of nudity because religious zealots were offended by it in the past, and now leftist zealots are offended. Let's remove the statue of David and all other art depicting the naked human body. Later, let's remove anything from public view that could potentially offend anyone.

[-] dr_robot@kbin.social 26 points 5 months ago

It does not seem like you heard the arguments presented in the article. It isn't about being offended by any left or right wing politics, but because women engineers and scientists were uncomfortable about it for a variety of reasons. In a field which struggles to attract and keep female talent, this is a pretty big thing. The model herself spoke out and asked to be "retired from tech".

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[-] kromem@lemmy.world 21 points 5 months ago

I have a friend who is a sex freelance journalist writing for everyone from the NYT to Playboy and she's been outspoken recently around a neo-puritan movement by younger generations.

People aren't having as much sex, have a lot more hangups about sex, are uncomfortable with sex depicted in media, etc.

This image didn't even contain nudity - it's a crop of the original that's in question.

There are broader social impacts for seemingly innocuous efforts like these, and I don't know it's all that healthy for us to be constantly self-thought policing when it comes to sex. Those attitudes seem to be moving beyond the immediate focus and into general attitudes and behaviors around sexual hangups.

We're seeing "purity culture"-like mentality infecting people who weren't even raised in oppressive religious contexts.

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[-] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 18 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

For the curious, you can find the uncropped photo by searching Lemmy posts for "Lenna". It was posted to !retro@lemmynsfw.com a few months ago.

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this post was submitted on 30 Mar 2024
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