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Four killed in Kentucky mass shooting before suspect turned gun on himself
(www.independent.co.uk)
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this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2024
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Any gun nut feel like arguing for insanity that are US gun laws?
All you need to do is ignore science and reality and every other country outsider of the US and be convinced that undiagnosed schizophrenics being able to buy a shedload of semi-automatic weapons is necessary for democracy.
All I need to do is remind you that there's not a single piece of study that supports any of the arguments of the gun nutters.
(Also, just because it seems to matter to these nuts, I started shooting at 12 and have handled everything from old officer's pistols to shotguns to modern assault rifles, machine guns, grenades, mines, and even AA guns. Shooting is fun, yeah, but having fun isn't more important than making sure children don't have to live under the constant threat of their fellow pupils pulling out a semi-auto with a bump-stock.)
Edit after three days: yeah, not a Single scientific study of any sort from the gun nuts, but the usual "teenagers aren't kids and we don't actually have any issues and I'm not reading some study, muh rights, just a gang problem" etc etc etc etc
The shooter was a convicted felon. What law do you suppose would've prevented this?
One that would have prevented him from getting his hands on a firearm.
If he's a felon, he shouldn't have been able to possess a gun. Did someone sell him a gun? Did someone let him borrow their gun? Did he steal it from someone who didn't store it securely in a gun safe?
Write the laws so that the person responsible for the felon having a gun can be convicted of murder for the people killed with that gun. Make the liability for owning and selling guns so strict that you would have to be an idiot not to take every precaution to protect yourself from fault.
Because this won't stop unless something changes, and we can't just sit on our hands and pretend it was nobody's fault every time it happens. If we're going to make laws forbidding felons from owning guns, we better start treating anyone who enables felon to have a gun as accomplices in any crimes committed with the gun, without exception. No protections for guns stores or private sellers, just actual enforcement of laws prohibiting felons from possessing firearms.
And here lies the problem. There are a ton of gun laws on the books already, but the enforcement of them is the problem. Adding more laws isn't going to change that.
I love it when people are like "the current set of laws is difficult to enforce, but adjusting the language of the law to make it more enforceable is NOT the answer", and then they just shrug it off like there's no solution.
Better laws do solve the issue. As I said, this man got his gun from somebody, and that somebody isn't suspect numero uno right now, so we need laws to change that.
If the law isn't serving us, the law ought to be changed.
Unless you have an alternative plan to offer, you're really just saying "do nothing", which you are welcome to do, but personally I would like to see less violence in the world.
Dude, the problem is that cops do not enforce gun laws against their fellow fascists. If you want better enforcement, the path is to fire ALL the cops, prosecute them, change the requirements for how they get hired, empower oversight boards, demilitarize their armories, and completely replace every single one.
Because until you reform the police, they don't care how many laws you pass.
Oh wow man, great idea. Too many mass shootings? Just fire all the cops. Just like that, no more mass shootings.
ACAB, but if your first step in preventing mass shootings is police reform, you need to step the fuck out of the way and let the people actually interested in addressing the gun problem figure this out.
Maybe one that removes all guns entirely. Other than that, not much.
Yes I to can make up bullshit...
You're being emotional, and that's how shit laws get created. Your logic follows the same crap that anti-abortion groups use, it's all based on emotions.
And you having "shot guns" doesn't make you an expert on guns.
More kids die from drowning than from being killed at school by a massive order of magnitude. Why aren't we closing pools and hot tubs? Or you don't want to because them dying isn't really the issue to you. It's what was used to have them die isn't it?
https://www.childrenssafetynetwork.org/infographics/facts-childhood-drowning
Cry all you want big boy, the science is on the side of us non-brainwashed, rational people who understand the need for actual gun regulation in a civilised country.
Too bad the US hardly qualifies to that group any more. Third world level literacy rates, so many homeless that human shit is an actual issue in supposedly civilised cities, and firearms as the leading cause of death for children.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/darreonnadavis/2023/10/05/firearms-now-no-1-cause-of-death-for-us-children---while-drug-poisoning-enters-top-5/
There's a literal mountai in the of evidence showing that all you need to do to start facing this problem is reasonable nation-wide gun regulation. Something everyone knows works and something that you won't find science against, because gun regulation being the answer is as clear to most people as is the fact that the Earth is round, not Flat.
But you will find Flat Earther crazies who won't believe in the science even when their own science proves that they are indeed wrong.
You're emotional. You get so angry when you're reminded that you go against science because you don't have the balls to actually use your own brain.
https://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/1/140.full.pdf+html
Oh yeah no, it doesn't bear any rationale to this argument. It's just there because gun nuts always default to the "you're just afraid of my pew-pew sticks, that's why you support gun regulation". Nah. I love guns, they're fun. But you know what I care more about than loud bangs? That children don't have to live in fear of some incel fucktards charging into their school with a pimped out AR15 with a bumpstock.
There's literally not a single peer reviewed study that concludes that less gun control is better, for anything.
But I'm sure the lack of science won't stop you, just like it doesn't stop Flat Earthers.
You're really just here to prove my point about the willfull ignorance of nuts like you. So... thanks, I guess?
I'm not the one crying, the 2nd isn't going anywhere, and neither are my firearms. More and more people on the left are arming themselves, and the gun control types are becoming a smaller and smaller group. The support you think you have is basically on echo chambers like reddit and here.
First, I'm all for social programs, ending the war on drugs, mental health, single payer healthcare and increasing our funding to education.
Second, firearms is not the leading cause of death for children. It was during covid because of how many people weren't driving and how depressed people got from being stuck inside and not being able to socialize.
Tell that to mexico or Brazil, you also forget that all the places you love to claim have lower gun violence are places with social support for their citizens.
Not even in the same ballpark.
Lol yea... I'm the angry one here.
Doesn't seem to be loading for me
The problem here is, you don't seem to care that kids die, just how they die. Most murders happen with handguns. In fact, murders with ar15s are so rare they're just included into all rifle deaths, because they're statistically pointless.
That's not how the second amendment works, it's not there to reduce our violence. It's there to stop a tyrannical gov....one of which seems to be coming more and more everyday. Do you just ignore the shit that's coming out of trump and his ilks mouth?
Statistics are what I look at. Which is why you thinking another bumpstock or AWB would do anything is hilarious.
Yes I'm the nut.
Look up the definition of children used here. Also look at suicide and homicides as part of that larger number. There's a lot of context that points to the fact that the root cause (obviously) isn't the tool, but the system the tools exist in.
Yep, they include usually all the way to 19 years old as a child.
People like them reek of the sheltered-liberal-20-year-old mindset of "the system is almost perfect, is we just make a couple of tweaks here and there it'll be fine." As if firearm restrictions alone will address socioeconomic ossification, the lack of meaningful state protection of vulnerable populations, deep resentment of minorities in homogenous, conservative areas, etc. Whining about how dumb people who hate guns less than they do are lets them get away with not doing the difficult work of addressing deep-rooted structural injustices. Fucking weak.
Works literally everywhere where reasonable gun regulation has been implemented on a national level.
https://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/1/140.full.pdf+html
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/
Like I said, unfortunately for you, we rational people have all the science backing us up. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You follow narrative, we follow science.
No, no it doesn't. Everywhere that has gun control also has social safety nets... everywhere they have gun control and no safety nets, its bad. Brazil and Mexico.... please explain those two countries which have very high firearm homicides but the gun laws there basically ban civilians from owning firearms.
Yes, it does.
Refusing to believe science, asserting your bullshit as more credible than Harvard and Oxford.
Always the same.
My facts are from actual facts. As I asked before, please tell me why Brazil and Mexico has worse gun crime than the USA, but has basically banned civilian ownership?
Your "science" isn't anything more than emotional bullshit.
What you're doing is crying a lot, denying the actual studies which have been done in, among other countries, Brazil.
You've never read a single one, because people like you never do. Instead you think your making aa good case by calling Harvard and Oxford studies "emotional bullshit" while thinking the garbage you pull out of your arse are "facts, my facts are real facts".
You seriously think you're gonna "debunk" large peer reviewed studies by the world's most esteemed universities by going "b-b-but w-what about B-Brazil..?!" (It's called whataboutism, a rather childish propaganda tactic.)
Since the studies are too hard for you to read:
https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/america-mass-shooting-gun-violence-statistics-charts
https://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/1/140.full.pdf+html
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/
You're never going to admit you're wrong, no matter how bad it gets in your shithole of a country. Why is that? Wouldn't it be better to admit how fucked up it is, to start fixing it? Or do you just like living in an unsafe shithole?
Science isn't on your side. Science is pretty quiet on ethics and human rights.
We pay a cost for all of our rights. None of them are free or without a body count, even if only in opportunity cost.
https://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/1/140.full.pdf+html
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/
Like I said, unfortunately for you, we rational people have all the science backing us up. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Show any science backing up anything saying gun control wouldn't help with the violence issue. Or is your argument now "I'm willing to allow children to be massacred on a weekly basis in practice with the excuse to allowing it to continue will perhaps serve a purpose for some fictional scenario I've been fantasising about"?
Because letting children die instead of just using sensible gun regulations like most of the world is a must in case you need to try another jan 6th, huh?
The science supports the effectiveness of rights violations? Neato. I'm sure we could find other 'science backed solutions' if we don't consider rights in the analysis.
There are things we can do to address genuine root causes of different types of firearm-related violence. Banning guns, leaving all those young people in horrible situations because you refuse to analyze the situation and patting yourself on the back sounds about right, though.
It's possible to disagree with someone without being a dick. Try it some time.
Do you honestly think everyone having access to a firearm is a fundamental human right?
Because… it very much isn’t.
For more about those, you can read on
https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights
And here, in a listed format, and you’ll very much notice the absence of being armed.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/universal-declaration-of-human-rights/
Let’s take article 3 as an example of a fundamental human right.
Do you think the US would manage to better protect that right if they accepted the actual science on the issue, rhe one which proves people would be safer and there’d be less gun violence if reasonable regulation was instilled on a national level?
Hope this helps, because people like you need to be helped so we can help ensure better fundamental human rights in the US.
What a stupid comparison. Guns have one purpose - destruction. You can talk about all the things you can do with guns, but their intended purpose and design is to destroy. The better they destroy shit, the more valuable they are. They're nothing without that. Pools and hot tubs are not that, and provide value to families and communities in other ways. Also, it's water. Literally water. And many areas have building codes surrounding pools and their safety. Mainly fences and safety covers. Homeowners insurance is also more expensive when you own a pool. Does that stop every child from drowning? No. Do we know how many times a child was saved because a pool was legally required to have a fence or safety cover? Also no. Also, there is no one running around with pools or hot tubs in their pockets drowning children en masse.
Yep, no argument there, but that wasn't my point.
You do know how many laws there are on the books for firearms right? It's over 20k laws in state and federal gov.
What's the point of this? You don't know how many kids on average are stopped by a safer either.
Again, so it doesn't matter that 950 kids a year on average drown, because that's just the deaths you're willing to take to have access to a body of water right?
None of that was to say it doesn't matter, it's to say it's a stupid comparison. We can work on drownings and work on gun deaths at the same time. They're two completely different problems. If I said too many people died in car accidents, you wouldn't say "well what about cigarettes!? Don't care about lung cancer then huh?" Yes. They both problems. Such different problems it's stupid to compare them. Pool safety also isn't a divisive political issue that's winds up in the news because people would mostly agree on common sense pool safety. There's no group of fenceless pool enthusiasts protesting for their right to own a pool that a child could easily drown in. We would consider those people idiots.
He's literally using whataboutism.
It's a garbage rhetoric "tactic" and you should not engage in it with him.
Going "b-b-but bathtubs" isn't him showing any science on gun regulation, it's pathetic whataboutism, all people like him are capable of.
And even with cars, a mode of transport that can be fatal if there's accident (but the main use of which is transportation), there already is reasonable regulation, because ONE NEEDS A LICENCE TO DRIVE, and there are criteria you need to meet to be allowed a licence.
edit gddamn autocorrect
Says the euro who keeps saying "what about Europe, see gun control works"...lol you've got no idea how the world works kid. Stick to your side of the pond and let me deal with my "3rd world shithole"
It's not "what about Europe", it's "here's a study from a very credible university looking at 130 different studies from all around the world, oh and here's another from another credible university, looking at all the objective information we have on the issue"
I'm not making an argument. The studies are.
https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/america-mass-shooting-gun-violence-statistics-charts
https://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/1/140.full.pdf+html
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/
Yeah no, I care about children being massacred, and willfully ignorant people like you are the thing that's making life less safe for children in your country. Just like I care about the genocide in Palestine and other threats to basic human rights, I care about the children in your country, and honestly, it's really weird that you've been brainwashed so badly that you don't, since caring for children is a very primordial instinct.
It's crazy that in America apparently you need to be a gun expert to know if you like to get shot on the streets or have your children get shot in a school. Ah ah aaaah, he said clip instead of magazine, he don't even know so his argument is invalid. You get murdered by a bullet from a magazine, not a clip. Gun nuts win again.
It's crazy that you should know a topic and be informed on it to discuss it? Really? You're literally talking like the anti-abortion/anti-contraception dicks who wave their bibles around. So yes, it's good to be informed on a topic.
What a silly thought.
Guns now top cause of death in children under 19, surgeon general says
If that doesn't suggest to you we have a problem that needs to be solved, the problem is you, not whatever you want to nitpick to avoid changing the gun situation in the US this time.
No it is not, a 19/18 year old is A) not a child, and B) those numbers are from COVID as I have explained already. People couldn't drive, so that lowered the deaths which historically have been the number one thing, and suicides went up.
Once numbers for 2023/post COVID are released it'll be back to cars being the number one cause.
So nitpicking it is. (also it's odd that the Surgeon General is making a statement in 2024 that doesn't use any data newer than 2020 - so odd, that I doubt your claim is correct.)
Making a statement in 2024 does not mean you used data from 2024...the year isnt even over, so no the data is not from 2024.
Please quote where I said the data was from 2024.
Covid was 2020. I'm doubtful the 2024 report is based entirely on numbers from 2020. I didn't look, and I doubt you did. But I'm doubtful, as I said.
In any case, it's a tragic statistic regardless of that, and also no matter whether we're cutting off "children" at 18 or 19 - and that's a pretty sickening reason to handwave it away. Deaths are deaths, and these are our youth.
Same with this BS:
Do you not recognize how asinine it is to hinge your argument on this? Let's say it's the number 2 cause of death. Hell, let's say it's the number three cause of death.
We have a problem and all some folks can do is nitpick about irrelevant bullshit that would not detract from the argument even if I accepted all the nitpicks.
Anyhow, I somehow missed this bit of classic internet snark, so you can fuck off with this dismissive and inaccurate ad hom:
I was getting OUT of the military longer ago than that, which is why I can recognize that 19 is a child in all ways that are relevant to their likely level of maturity, and the tragedy of their deaths, plus be appropriately horrified at the continual resistance to doing anything at all about it.
Good Day, Sir.
Edit -
Not that it matters at all except to folks who want to deflect from the problem, but here's the press release that accompanies that 2024 report.
It cites this source, among others, and I'm sure if I wasn't too lazy to crawl the actual PDF I'd find others: https://wonder.cdc.gov/Deaths-by-Underlying-Cause.html
In any case, if deflection, denial, and ad hom attacks are all you got, I see no reason to continue.
You posted an image acting like because it said 2024 that the data is from 2024. Don't act like you weren't trying anything else.
I did look, most reports take years to be published because of the amount of data that's available. Usually its 4ish years old by the time it's released. This is just the nature of these reports. Its why the studies from 2015/2016 where the last ones prior to seeing the 2020/21 studies get released.
It's not, it's nuance that's being lost. The public hears kids, they think 5 year olds being killed, not a gang member who just had beef with another gang member who's now dead.
It's not, suicide is the main cause of that number. Are you going to feel better because you put in a law that somehow magically stops people from offing themselves with a firearm but the suicide numbers don't drop they just use another tool? Will you stand up and call it a win then? Or will you realize that we have a problem with our society and our citizens need social support and reform first. One of those options will drastically reduce our violence and suicides...the other will not.
I never said we don't have an issue. I've merely stated that guns aren't our issue and I've given solutions that will actually work, I'm not the one nitpicking things. Anti-2a groups are.
I don't know how you got comments mixed up but you're thinking of some other user. I never questioned your age, this user did.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11054266
This is the report that cites the 2020/21 numbers.
Yea which cites COVID numbers as I've previously stated.
I'm not deflecting anything, and I've not denied anything either, and the attacks are not from me as I've pointed out, you must have copied that other users comments thinking they were mine.
Please. I posted it because it would be stupid for the surgeon general to stop looking at data in 2020 for a statement released in 2024. (and that's exactly what I said in my comment with the picture)
And indeed I see a lot of citations with later dates than 2020. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/firearm-violence-advisory.pdf
Not in reply to me you didn't.
Whoops.
So these teenagers you speak about, you think they're not children?
Let me guess, you're like 20-23?
Yes, 18 and 19 year old are non-fully developed humans. Still developing. Not finished. SO MUCH SO, that they CAN AREN'T VENE ALLOWED BEER.
It's so pathetic the excuses you keep making to try and spin a horrible fact into something that doesn't need to be worried about.
Like compared to Europe, America really is on the level of developing countries, and even worse in a lot of instances.
https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier
Science agrees that gun control works. It's just a fact. A fact you won't be able to accept, no matter what.
No they're not, most gang related violence here in the states is from 15-19 year olds. Which heavily skew the numbers.
Lol try again kid, I'm probably old enough to be your father.
Is that why they're allowed alcohol in most of Europe at that age?
Well considering that 2/3rds (%66~) of our deaths are suicides, then of the 34% left, 85% of those are gang/drug related, and then the last %15 covers police killings (on average 1k deaths a year from the police shooting someone) and then you have the few hundred murders a year from firearms that includes (mass shootings, robberies, muggings, random acts of violence). But you wouldn't know this because you're from a euro country who thinks guns magically make the usa the wild west and blood pours from the streets daily while roaming hordes or mass murders just walk around openly and execute people.
Yea you don't know what you're talking about.
Science agrees that counties that have social programs that support their citizens have less violence overall... Brazil still is waiting on your "gun control works"...
Keep shifting the goal post to younger and younger?
If you're even close my age, that's fucking sad man. If you've gotten over the age of 35 and still think it's okay when kids die because they're teenagers, live in bad areas (and are usually minorities), then... how the fuck do you sleep at night?
The mental gymnastics is goddamn impressive.
The age of consent is on average 16, and in lots of countries you may have a light alcohol beverage with a meal if accompanied by your guardians. Just like with your driving licences. A "learner's permit" if you will, because we understand that these are kids on the verge of adulthood, so they're gradually allowed to do more and more adult things. You can have a mild drink with a meal at 16, buy yourself drinks at a bar and purchase wines and milds from stores at 18 and when you're 20, no limits anymore. You can drive a <11kW bike at 16, a <25kW at 18 and any power at 20. Because again, developing, so gradually ease them in so they're ready when they're fully-grown as opposed to being a developing young human being.
People's brains don't even fully mature until they're ~26, but you try to shirk responsibility of children getting slaughtered with an excuse of "well most of them are older kids who live in poor socioeconomic areas, so why would their deaths matter".
Like I said, there's never any science with you people, always the same chants of "not kids", "muh rights" (a right to a gun isn't a human right) and "but then only criminals will have guns" and you never ever read any of the science on the matter.
No shit? You're too thick to read a simple summary from Harvard and you excuse the leading cause of children being guns as "most of them are black teens so they're criminals anyway so who cares", so why would you accept science concerning your shitty "what about"?
Here's a summary of the OXFORD UNIVERSITY study I have linked several times:
###"... SPECIFICALLY BRAZIL ..."
So why don't you actually read the fucking thing? Just like I've been saying all along, you're nothing but a willfully ignorant gun nut parroting propaganda you've overheard, and you never ever have a single piece of peer reviewed study to support your regurgitated bullshit.
Also, you want to know about the reasons for South American instability and crime? How about a look in the mirror?
https://www.cepr.net/how-us-guns-destabilize-latin-america-and-fuel-the-refugee-crisis/
Although how would you ever read a book on the matter, when a page long summary gives you trouble.
Project 2025.
And until the day comes when exactly that has no chance of ever happening again, minorities should keep strapped.
If you really want to understand their perspective, consider an analogous argument involving some other fundamental human right, ideally one that you strongly support.
An easy one is free speech. Many countries without this right believe it is dangerous and stupid, using a litany of rational assertions and examples to justify themselves.
Consider all of the harm caused by people spreading lies and propaganda. The right to free speech ensures the most evil ideas and people can utilize our most powerful social constructs to attack the very foundations that a stable society depends on. etc...
Every right can be abused, and likewise an argument can be formulated against them based on their potential for abuse. Those that support some right typically believe the benefits outweigh the costs.
Hope this helps.
Do you honestly think everyone having access to a firearm is a "fundamental human right"?
Because... it very much isn't.
For more about those, you can read on
https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights
And here, in a listed format, and you'll very much notice the absence of being armed.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/universal-declaration-of-human-rights/
Let's take article 3 as an example of a fundamental human right.
Do you think the US would manage to better protect that right if they accepted the actual science on the issue, rhe one which proves people would be safer and there'd be less gun violence if reasonable regulation was instilled on a national level?
Hope this helps, because people like you need to be helped so we can help ensure better fundamental human rights in the US.
I'm not trying to argue with you.
It seemed that you were trying to make sense of the gun nut mindset. Gun nuts do indeed think firearm ownership is a fundamental human right, so considering it as such is necessary to understand their perspective.
No no, I'm not trying understand anything here. I'm displaying how delusional gun nuts are, for example by thinking unlimited access to firearms is a "human right"? I mean I know the education in the US is bad, but that's just... next level bad.