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submitted 8 months ago by joojmachine@lemmy.ml to c/linux@lemmy.ml
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[-] stuckgum@lemmy.ml 78 points 8 months ago

Yet another security issue that Rust would solve.

[-] veniasilente@lemm.ee 77 points 8 months ago

Oh, we heard, Rust is the greatest invention since sliced bread. We heard it already. Like 65534 times.

[-] Zucca@sopuli.xyz 58 points 8 months ago

Like 65534 times.

So close to full 16-bit max. So close...

[-] veniasilente@lemm.ee 11 points 8 months ago

Yeah we only need 2 brainRusts more to start seeing some fun.

[-] Zucca@sopuli.xyz 2 points 8 months ago

Gah. I should have stated "I see what you did there." instead. ;)

[-] drwho@beehaw.org 18 points 8 months ago

I wonder how many folks are just refusing to use Rust to spite the Rust Evangelism Strike Team.

[-] Templa@beehaw.org 11 points 8 months ago

Rustaceans 🤝 Vegans

[-] swab148@startrek.website 4 points 8 months ago

I wish there was a synonym for "evangelism" that began with a "u".

[-] Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca 3 points 8 months ago

Urge? Kinda dark and villainous feeling.

Upgrade! "The Rust Upgrade Strike Team! Upgrade Today!" Sounds very propagandistic, almost doublespeak.

Ultimatum? Mildly threatening.

Utopia? It has the self righteous feel.

Uhvangelism, hurhur.

Universalism?

[-] Templa@beehaw.org 2 points 8 months ago

I giggled, thank you.

[-] delirious_owl@discuss.online 2 points 8 months ago

I wait until cargo is actually secure.

[-] uhN0id@programming.dev 1 points 8 months ago
[-] delirious_owl@discuss.online 5 points 8 months ago

It doesn't verify downloads are authentic. Its an issue with almost all programming dependency managers besides mature ones like Java's Maven.

Python has been working with Facebook to fix this in pip for like a decade.

But obviously it shows that rust isn't so concerned about security.

[-] uhN0id@programming.dev 3 points 8 months ago

Ah interesting. Thank you, you're giving me something to read about that I never considered for crates. I guess I just assumed because of the scrutiny Rust was built with and continues to go through that it would also apply to verifying crates. I have definitely heard about it with NPM so it should have been obvious that it might not be any different for crates. Thanks again!

[-] doona@aussie.zone 17 points 8 months ago

I hate it when people talk about new technologies 🤬

[-] veniasilente@lemm.ee 11 points 8 months ago

Same. We should head back to ICQ!

[-] leopold@lemmy.kde.social 8 points 8 months ago

eh, still beats Discord as far as I'm concerned

[-] VerseAndVermin@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

Yeah, but no one will hop on irc or mumble to hang out these days.

[-] veniasilente@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago

Not with that attitude!

I'm already on IRC and XMPP. be the change you want to see.

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[-] the_doktor@lemmy.zip 20 points 8 months ago

Any software can have security issues, including ones written in rust. Just because C/C++ allows one to shoot oneself in the foot doesn't mean it's something that's commonly allowed by anyone with any skill, it's just a bug like anything else. I swear, people advocating rust believe that it's something intrinsic in C/C++ that allows such a thing regardless of what a developer does, and it's getting tiresome.

[-] ProgrammingSocks@pawb.social 10 points 8 months ago

Of course a good developer can avoid these problems for the most part. The point is that we want the bad developers to be forced to do things a safe way by default.

[-] pathief@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

Even good developers make mistakes. It's really nice to catch these mistakes at compile time.

[-] Miaou@jlai.lu 7 points 8 months ago

But it is, do you not understand what rust brings compared to these two languages ?

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[-] GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml 12 points 8 months ago

There are still slight advantages to C that probably will make some devs stick to it in specific cases

[-] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 19 points 8 months ago

But this isn’t one of them

[-] DacoTaco@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

Serious question, how would using rust avoid this? Rust still has reference types in the background, right? Still has a way to put stuff on the heap too? Those are the only 2 requirements for reusing memory bugs

[-] sleep_deprived@lemmy.world 32 points 8 months ago

This is a use-after-free, which should be impossible in safe Rust due to the borrow checker. The only way for this to happen would be incorrect unsafe code (still possible, but dramatically reduced code surface to worry about) or a compiler bug. To allocate heap space in safe Rust, you have to use types provided by the language like Box, Rc, Vec, etc. To free that space (in Rust terminology, dropping it by using drop() or letting it go out of scope) you must be the owner of it and there may be current borrows (i.e. no references may exist). Once the variable is droped, the variable is dead so accessing it is a compiler error, and the compiler/std handles freeing the memory.

There's some extra semantics to some of that but that's pretty much it. These kind of memory bugs are basically Rust's raison d'etre - it's been carefully designed to make most memory bugs impossible without using unsafe. If you'd like more information I'd be happy to provide!

[-] DacoTaco@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago

Thanks for the response. Ive heard of rust's compiler being very smart and checking a ton of stuff. Its good thing it does, but i feel like there are things that can cause this issues rust cant catch. Cant put my finger on it.
What would rust do if you have a class A create something on the heap, and it passes this variable ( by ref ? ) to class B, which saves the value into a private variable in class B. Class A gets out of scope, and would be cleaned up. What it put on the heap would be cleaned up, but class B still has a reference(?) to the value on the heap, no? How would rust handle such a case?

[-] mhague@lemmy.world 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

You use lifetimes to annotate parameters and return values in order to tell the compiler about how long things must last for your function to be valid. You can link a specific input with the output, or explicitly separate them. If you don't give lifetimes the language uses some basic rules to do it for you. If it can't, eg it's ambiguous, then it's a compile error and you need to do it manually.

It's one of the harder concepts of rust to explain succinctly. But imagine you had a function that took strA and strB, used strB to find a subsection of strA, and then return a slice of strA. That slice is tied to strA. You would use 'a annotation for strA and the return value, and 'b for strB.

Rust compiler will detect the lifetime being shorter than expected.


Also, ownership semantics. Think c++ move semantics. Only one person is left with a good value, the previous owners just have garbage data they can't use anymore. If you created a thing on the heap and then gave it away, you wouldn't have it anymore to free at the end. If you want to have "multiple owners" then you need ref counting and such, which also stops this problem of premature freeing.


Edit: one more thing: reference rules. You can have many read-only references to a thing, or one mutable reference. Unless you're doing crazy things, the compiler simply won't let you have references to a thing, and then via one of those references free that thing, thereby invalidating the other references.

[-] DacoTaco@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Thats interresting, thanks! Stuff for me to look into!
I also think halfway through the conversation i might have given the impression i was talking about pointers, while it was not my intention to do so. That said, the readonly/mutable reference thing is very interresting!
Ill look into what rust does/has that is like the following psuedocode :

DataBaseUser variable1 = GetDataBaseUser(20);
userService.Users.Add(variable1);
variable1 = null; // or free?
[end of function scope here, reference to heap now in list ]

[-] mhague@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

No problem. I'm no guru and I'm currently on Zig but I think learning some Rust is a really fast way to hone skills that are implied by other languages.

[-] been_jamming@lemm.ee 4 points 8 months ago

It's not like C where you have control over when you can make references to data. The compiler will stop you from making references in the cases where a memory bug would be possible.

[-] ProgrammingSocks@pawb.social 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Rust simply doesn't allow you to have references to data that goes out of scope (unless previously mentioned hoops are jumped through such as an explicitly declared unsafe block). It's checked at compile time. You will never be able to compile the program.

Rust isn't C. Rust isn't C++. The memory-safe-ness of it is also not magic, it's a series of checks in the compiler.

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[-] paysrenttobirds@sh.itjust.works 1 points 8 months ago

The way I understand it, it is a bug in C implementation of free() that causes it to do something weird when you call it twice on the same memory. Maybe In Rust you can never call free twice, so you would never come across this bug. But, also Rust probably doesn't have the same bug.

My point is it seems it is a bug in the underlying implementation of free(), not to be caught by the compiler, and can't Rust have such errors no matter its superior design?

[-] Feyd@programming.dev 10 points 8 months ago

The way that rust attempts to prevent this class of error is not by making an implementation of free that is safe to call twice, but by making the compiler refuse to compile programs where free could be called twice on a pointer.

Anyway, use after free doesn't depend on a double free. It just means that the program frees memory but keeps the pointer (which now points at memory that could contain unrelated data at some future point in time) and if someone trying to exploit the program finds a way to induce the program to read or write to that memory they may be able to access data they are not expected to, or write data to be used by a different part of the program that they shouldn't be able to

[-] paysrenttobirds@sh.itjust.works 2 points 8 months ago

Thanks, I understand the problem with using memory after it's been freed and possibly access it changed by another part of the process. I guess I was confused by the double free explanation I read, which didn't really say how it could be exploited, but I think you are right it still needs to be accessed later by the original program, which would not happen in Rust.

[-] Nibodhika@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago

Not really, the issue is that C/C++ is not memory safe, i.e. it allows you to access memory that has already been freed. Consider the following C++ code:

int* wrong() {
  int data  = 10;
  return &data;
}

If you try to use it it looks correct:

int* ptr = wrong();
std::cout << *ptr << std::endl;

That will print 10, but the memory where data was defined has been freed, and is no longer in control of the program. Meaning that if something else allocated that memory they can control what my program does.

Consider that on that example above later in the program we do:

user.access_level = *ptr;

If someone manages to get control of that memory between when we freed it and we used it they can make the access_level of the user be whatever they want.

This is a problem with C/C++ allowing you to access memory that has been freed, which is why C/C++ programmers need to be extra careful.

[-] paysrenttobirds@sh.itjust.works 3 points 8 months ago

Thank you, that is very clear.

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 5 points 8 months ago

The problem is bad programmers. You can write good C code but it takes more effort and security checking. You also can write vulnerable and sloppy Rust code.

[-] henfredemars@infosec.pub 3 points 8 months ago

I don’t think it’s realistic to expect a rewrite of code that works. Maybe over time we can start implementing pieces in safer languages.

[-] eveninghere@beehaw.org 3 points 8 months ago

I admit C++ ain't safe, but wonder if there's an alternative to going Rust. Don't get me wrong, I love the language. But Rust is a beast on its own. I read here that game devs generally can't adapt Rust because the language forces frequent refactoring, which doesn't fit the business speed of game development.

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this post was submitted on 31 May 2024
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