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this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2023
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Yikes the anti-feminist takes in this thread lol
Men do not experience body policing in even remotely similar ways to women. If that fact offends you you probably don't actually understand how misogyny functions.
The standard of “very good body” is higher for women, sure, but the standard of “good enough body” for women is much, much lower than the one for men.
The first one is useful if you want to be an actor or model, the second if you want to find a partner for life. Guess which of the two is more relevant for the average person.
Your body affects your life in many more ways when you're a woman. My body affects my employment, it affects me whenever I go anywhere in public, it affects my relationships with friends with family and with coworkers. It's open season to make comments about my body, regardless of if I've got a "very good body" or not. Harassment of women is the norm. It's not attached to perceived attractiveness, at least not in that only those deemed very attractive suffer sexual harassment and assault. We all suffer in this, and over a lifetime starting as a literal child it totally dehumanizes you. Being lesser is a woman's place, because all society will ever focus on is our bodies and how they relate to men. We don't even get to be people, just game pieces surrounding men only relevant in whatever use we have to them. Misogyny is a cornerstone of our society itself. It's baked into our politics, our tradition, our history, our legal system, our families, It's everywhere. And thats why comparing the way men and women experience body standards and policing doesn't work. The scale isn't even close to the same, nor is the severity.
Ok, now this is just plain overdramatizing. We’re not in the 19th century anymore, on paper women have every right men have in the whole first world, plenty of corporations are built with the main purpose of providing pleasant experiences to women and a lot of women have been in very high positions of power. Women ARE people just as much as men according to the huge majority of people, and those who don’t think so are usually unlikeable by men and women alike.
Misogyny is very much an issue in the modern society because its roots were in misogyny and you don’t change thousands of years in a century, but we’re moving very fast. I can get that your physical appearance can make a difference in whether you get hired in some companies (and if it does, you probably dodged a bullet), but to say that in modern society women “don’t get to be people” is insulting to all the progress humanity has done.
I've lived it myself, listen to women and read the studies and surveys on these things. On paper means nothing, especially when women are unequal in ways the law does not even account for. In my hometown nearly half of all women have been sexually assaulted. I rarely meet a woman who hasn't experienced any sexual harassment or assault, many experience it before they're even adults. Girls and women are still suffering, in many ways things have barely changed at all. Yes we can work jobs now, yes we can vote. But even people who think it's wrong continue to perpetuate misogyny anyway, misogyny exists everywhere in everyone across society. We all get indoctrinated as children into it, and it takes a lot to deconstruct all the propaganda we're fed.
Society has made some progress, but honestly not very much. Women don't even have human rights in the US. In terms of culture, in terms of actual people and their actual beliefs, we have actually changed very little in the last 50 years. People have always hated women and that has not changed as much as you seem to think it has. Again, I'd encourage you to listen to the stories of women when they talk about the way society continues to discriminate against them. I'd encourage you to frequent women's forums online and read what we talk about and what horrifying realities we live in.
We’ve changed “very little” since the time of these ads? When there were still places in Europe where women couldn’t vote? When marry-yor-rapist laws were still common? In those years where we had the first female UK prime minister, the first female German chancellor, the first female US vice president and so on? Come on.
Sexual harassment is very much a problem in modern society, and way too many misogynists still exist, but to say that women are still “not people” and that we’re not moving forward in recent years is definitely an exaggeration. Women from 50 years ago probably wouldn’t believe it if you told them all the progress we’ve made in the meantime.
The dominant structure of the patriarchy has never changed. Women still earn less, disproportionately suffer sexual and physical violence, still face constant policing of our bodies, still face patriarchal attitudes in men and our friends and our families, were still expected to have children and marry men and we face prejudice and discrimination if we are unwed and have no children. This entire conversation has been principally about American power structures, but similar ones exist around the world. Women can't even get safe health care in America. Women are legally not afforded the same rights as men in America, not that the legal system is the sole metric by which we measure inequality. We are still expected to be homemakers, still face sexual harassment in our homes in our workplaces in education and from our friends. We still get assaulted by men at staggeringly under reported rates. The ruling class is almost entirely men. The ruling class is almost entirely patriarchal. Rapists still barely suffer any punishment for their crimes, not even 10% of rapists ever see any kind of consequences for their actions.
You are vastly overestimating how much society has changed. 50 years ago we had no right to safe health care, and once again today we don't. 50 years ago our mother's were being beaten and sexually assaulted by their partners at sickening rates, and still we are today. 50 years ago women were paid less than men, and so we are today. I could go on. Nominally blatant hatred towards women is less tolerable in today's media, but its still tolerated and present in a lot of it. Our actual lives, our actual experiences, our suffering at the hands of misogyny has changed very little from 50 years ago. I mentioned in another comment, but I briefly worked with kids at a youth center. And I can say with certainty that the trend isn't even better with their generation. Systemic change was always required to solve systemic issues, and we have never even come close to systemic change with regards to misogyny. That would mean deconstructing one of the cornerstones of American society and culture, and you've seen how any attacks on American society or culture are perceived. Our concerns are always dismissed and our proposal for change always falls on deaf ears by those who see no problem with our suffering.
So just because crimes against women still occur we haven’t improved at all? It’s not an improvement until there is absolutely zero crimes being committed against women?
Again, you can’t expect that to happen in a century. Crimes against women have been taken much more seriously in recent years, hell, some of them weren’t even considered crimes 50 years ago. Prejudices and patriarchal attitude has also been getting less and less intense, as people, both male and female, realized they’re generally harmful to everyone. Things have gotten better, are getting better and hopefully will get even better as more and more “relics of the past” leave this world and newer generations take over.
How much time would you say you dedicate to investigating men's issues vs women's issues?
As a woman and my friend group being mostly women anything that affects women I hear about. I have listened plenty of times to men talking about the problems they face. I'm aware of the challenges imposed on men by society, many of which are directly related to and affected by misogyny and toxic masculinity. I'm not a sociology researcher by any means, I see studies I come across and listen to people talk about problems they face. I have my own personal experiences with men and those of my friends family and partners past and present.
I don't take issue with discussion of men's issues, thats objectively good. It does not have to be to the dismissal of misogyny though.
Could you put a number on it? Like... for every 10 studies/articles on women's issues you read, how many men's issues studies would you be reading? 10 to 10? 10 to 5? 10 to 2?
Or let's say you've spent idk... 200 hours looking into women's issues, talking to women, etc... How many hours have you listened to men, or researched their issues? 200:200, 200:100, 200:50? (not counting debates) Your best ballpark.
Like how many men's forums are you subscribed to?
This assumes women on average are as interest in "just sex" as men are. I don't care for men thinking my body is just good enough for sex.
I mean, in a relationship, what else do you need a body for? The main thing that keeps two people interested in each other is the personality, as long as the bodies are “good enough” to sexually stimulate your partner there’s not much more they’re needed for. Hell, for some that isn’t even a requirement.
But it doesn't make sense to complain about women supposedly having higher standards when men and women seem to have, on average, different expectations towards a relationship? I would rather be alone than being with a person who just finds my body good enough. For many men this seems to be different.
I always thought the “different expectations” prejudice about relationships was more about average men wanting a “body to fuck” that’s also a pleasant person and average women wanting a pleasant person that’s also a “body to fuck” (you know, the old adage about push-up bras and lies).
I don’t know if it’s also about how much is your body attractive to your partner, to me it seems like an unnecessary requirement and kind of “objectifying yourself”. Like, if a person is in love with your personality and finds your body simply “attractive”, is that not good enough for a relationship to you? That situation is like hitting a jackpot for most men I know.
It is objectifying towards yourself. And it stems from the fact that in media and our society in general women are valued by their looks. There are very few examples for likeable female characters, for example, who aren't also beautiful and young. It's a complex issues and that's why it is especially questionable to produce such a meme.
Then why would you do that? If you recognize it’s not right to expect that, why would you specifically want a partner that absolutely loves your body?
Because, as we’ve been saying, most characters (whether males or females) in fiction are beautiful. There’s also very few examples of likeable male characters that aren’t also beautiful.
You might have a point with the age but I’d attribute that to historical Hollywood stars being mostly male, as more popular actresses get old we’ll definitely see more likeable old women.
You would do that because that's how you are socialised as a woman growing up. Your value is your youth and how beautiful you are. That's it.
It is not easy to just rid yourself from socialising. As a man this can be hard to get when it's about beauty standards because beauty standards imposed onto men are not even close as restrictive as those imposed onto women.
There are many examples for unattractive, funny looking, old, chubby, etc. male characters in media. For female characters that's the exception.
I don’t know, I really don’t get the reasoning. I can understand being conditioned so that your subconscious gives a higher importance to your body than what it should be, and that can be hard to completely get rid of, but you consciously typed “I would rather be alone than being with a person who just finds my body good enough”. That doesn’t seem like something egodystonic you’re actively trying to fight.
And as for representation in media, are all those funny looking/chubby characters actual, three-dimensional characters or are they just the comic relief whose main point of their personality is “he’s a nerd/fat/ugly”? Because for fat kids that’s exactly the opposite of body positivity, and the only reason why there’s so many males and little females in that trope is because making fun of a woman for her appearance is generally something frowned upon (meanwhile for men it’s totally ok, at least until recently)
Unfortunately there are too many "open-minded" and "open-minded"-adjacent people who have huge blindspots to their own hypocrisy and philosophical paradoxes. I've met so many IRL and net-folk who are lefty "activists" who are huge fucking racists and douchebag misogynists. Extinction Rebellion for example is full of them. I get a bad taste in my mouth whenever I remember certain interactions with them.
I think that might be related to whether someone sees people as good and bad, or as being capable of doing good and bad things.
From how I see it, classifying people as just good and bad is very reductive in that you assume that bad people do bad things with bad intentions and the opposite for good people. That means that if you're certain that you're a good person, you don't need to question your own actions or motives because you can't do bad.
If you however see people as capable of making good or bad actions with good or bad intentions, you should realize that people you see as good can do bad things and vice versa. That means you should always examine your own motivations and your own decisions to make sure you're doing the right things for the right reasons.
I personally believe this is why it is so common among certain activist groups to harbor some absolutely atrocious beliefs that seem contrary to what they're working for.
That makes a lot of sense. I guess it's always a matter of education in the home and otherwise. Critical thinking and self-analysis seem to be difficult to engender when there's a culture of accepted vertical hierarchy. I don't think it's wrong to say capitalist philosophical leanings create emotionally and philiosophically lazy individuals. The true laziness is always in the opposite direction of the espoused morals of work culture.
Dear men: stfu, you are not allowed to have any problems. Get back to your stoicism.
Sincerely, Feminists who claim to care about men.
Nah, men can and do have problems. This post is an example of a man problem. There are people on this post trying to claim that men and women suffer equally in this regard and arguing with people who are pointing out that this is wrong.
Men suffer from toxic body standards and would greatly benefit from body positivity and better representation in media. But men aren't (as an entire class of people) getting harassed as 10 year olds by 40 year old men making comments about their bodies. Men aren't (as an entire class of people) having relatives make open comments about the size of their secondary sex characteristics and their bodies in general. As a class you don't experience this. Some individuals might, I've rarely met women who did not experience body policing from their earliest memories, ive rarely met women who have never experienced sexual harassment. The statistics are crystal clear in this regard.
Again, body positivity and better representation for diverse body types would be great for men too. No one is saying otherwise. Even that isn't enough for women, because institutional misogyny exists at all levels of society and in nearly all people in society. Even well meaning and otherwise progressive people can and are misogynist. Even your family and friends are. Its impossible to simply change one thing. It requires a society wide change in tolerance for bigotry.
/*Pokes circumcised dick.
/*Looks at the countless men living their lives recieving no emotional support.
/*Looks at male suicide rates.
/*Looks at male domestic abuse rates.
/*Looks at history of men getting lynched.
/*Looks at what happens when a man wears a bun, has long hair, has piercings, has any sort of distinguishing features.
/*Looks at classic stereotypes of "fat stupid man"
/*Looks at people casually calling men fat.
/*Looks at stats showing men are more then twice as likely to face assault in public, are twice as likely to experience assault causing bodily injuries, are twice as likely recieve major injuries...
Like how you can look at the male suicide rates and just "nah there's nothing deeper here" is beyond me.
I never said that men do not suffer in any way, I said that women's body image issues are systemic ones that affect us for all our lives and from nearly everyone in our lives. It happens to every woman. Men's body image issues are not systemic ones. Body shaming is a thing, but its not a social institution to severely sexually harass and assault men and boys. Almost every woman will experience sexual harassment and assault to some degree. It affects the entire class of women.
So a bunch of men experience the same thing completely independently from each other, and you're here just assuming there aren't systemic processes at play? Like do you just think men have some biological affinity for suits and ties? or Jeans and T-shirts? Or it's just a coincidence or what? Like we live in a world of cause and effect, everything you see in society is a matter of systemic influences.
There are systemic problems for men as well. This conversation has gone largely beyond its scope, that being the way that body image issues for women are unique and particularly abhorrent. Misogyny is a system that also affects the lives of men by devaluing specific activities, clothes, opinions, personality traits etc. that society associates with women and girls. It reinforces misogynistic principles and affects the lives of women too. Men should be allowed to dress how they want to (so should women), work what jobs they want to, present themselves however they want to, and so on. All those things also affect women and the majority of them are based around discrimination towards women. "Pink is girly and therefore boys shouldn't like pink" only functions if you think that being girly is bad or worse or lesser.
But there's lots of systemic issues in society. Misogyny affects the entire class of women directly and the entire class of men indirectly. There are other systems that devalue men such the prison industrial complex, the military industrial complex, rape culture that discourages male victims from coming forward, and the wage slavery of late stage capitalism. Those things also affect women. And intersectional feminism examines the way that those systems interact and build upon one another. Misogyny is one of the most abhorrent things man has ever created, and me and all my friends live with and struggle against misogyny every single day. I think the scale of the problem is hard to understand if you don't talk to a lot of women about their struggles. And when we do speak up more often than not we're barely acknowledged at all, look at the backlash to misogyny in video games or the backlash to the epidemic of rape on college campuses. Those problems have never adequately been addressed in any capacity. When its women's issues a quarter of society listens and cares enough to acknowledge the problems we face, half of society is ambivalent and does not react at all, and the remaining quarter actively believe in misogyny.
Piss off with the oppression olympics please.
That phrase is meaningless lol, what part of my comment are you saying that to? The horrifying things that women experience every single day? Is the lived experiences of women and girls "oppression olympics" to you?
Yes! Literally yes! You're close to getting it!
"Women have it worse" is participating in oppression Olympics and it's belittling men's problems. I am not disputing the facts of how bad women have it. I don't think anyone in this thread is.
I'm saying it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand, and at BEST it's a distraction.
This isn't a men's space. This is a public forum. I'm allowed to respond to anti feminism here and I will. That's your own problem if you do not like it. And you're openly using anti feminist nonsense yourself, shocking you didn't like my initial comment.
So you mean, this meme should piss off? Because it is what started the oppression olympics.
Have you ever heard of "two for flinching"? That was (I hope) a thing back in my school days, whereby another boy would mime a physical attack, like a punch to the face, or body slam. When you instinctually recoiled, the other boy would delightedly proclaim, "two for flinching," and punch you hard in the arm, twice. The message was clear.
Men as a class certainly do get policed by boys, girls, and adults about affect, height, weight, voice change, et cetera. I say this not to dismiss or downplay what girls experience, but to say that certainly happens. In fact, I'm certain that it's two sides of the same coin, and it all needs to go away.
Dear confused men (hashtag: not all men): You have lots of problems. The vast majority are not caused by women. One of your problems is trying to blame us for many of the harmful things you do to yourselves, or that patriarchy/toxic masculinity does to you. Another problem is loathing it when women try to help you by explaining this to you but it isn't what you want to hear bc it isn't stroking your ego (or other bits). So there really isn't much else to be done - your problems are yours to solve, and all we can do is try some damage control for ourselves while you guys bang your heads against the floor.
Sincerely - Feminists, who care about men, but not to the point of our own destruction any longer.
Thank you, oh glorious and righteous Angel of Feminism, for educating us lowly male peasants on Our Problems.
No one was blaming you all for shit until you came in here belittling male issues out of nowhere.
Bunch of feminists came in this thread and picked a fight. Piss off.
The meme is belittling feminism and/or women's issues. If you don't want to start a discussion, do not post provocative memes. Otherwise live with the discussion that will ensue.
This is not what anybody is saying, except for the meme bit towards women. Did you read the top line on it?
It's absolutely the tone. You're not allowed to complain because we women have it worse. That's the message that's being sent across right now.
That is combative, dismissive, and by the way totally wrong. If the feminists in this thread actually gave a shit about men, they'd be listening, not lecturing. They came here to pick a fight.
No, people in this thread were saying that men and women suffer the same from body image policing. Which isn't true. Like I said in my initial comment, if that offends you then you don't understand how misogyny works.
I love the goal post shift!
Feminism: "We need to promote body positivity"
Society promotes body positivity towards women.
Men: "What about us?"
Feminism: "Men don't experience body policing like women do!"
But.. what about body positivity..
This is the shit that confused me about people pushing vaccinations. It's all "body rights body rights body rights" until someone gets recognition you don't like.
"Oh but traditionally women have been.. etc"
Oh so now we care about traditions? Now suddenly we're pushing social norms? Now conveniently personal rights, and freedoms don't matter?
Do you know why feminists suck? It's because they aren't actually egalitarian. And worse, they are blinded by their own friggen biases.
I've watched feminists chop a fucking guy down, and gaslight him that "it sounds like he hates women" for talking about not getting emotional support in relationships. Dude then got muted. Women calling men trash though? "Ohhh you should know they're not talking about you. A good man wouldn't take offense to this".
Fuck, I'm nonbinary, I date a lot of other nonbinaries. I've literally got in arguments with nonbinary feminists sitting there telling me "You have to understand society sees you as a white man".
Shit is fucked. Just completely fucked.
I am fucking happy to see men getting recognition instead of seeing everything blamed on toxic masculinity.
/rant
Okay, so firstly I never said that body positivity and diverse representation of body types didn't also need to take into account body image standards for men. I was responding to people in the comments of this post who were essentially saying "body image issues for men" and "body image issues for women" are the same in terms of how they affect men and women respectively. Which isn't true, and we can easily see why when discussing the systemic issue of misogyny and the way women have their bodies policed throughout their entire lives and by their family friends coworkers peers and society at large including all forms of media. Body image issues for women are related to societal misogyny, and affected by continuous sexual harassment and assault starting when we are children. It happens everywhere, including from your own family.
This continues to this day. A couple years ago I volunteered at a youth group, and can confirm with certainty that the next generation of girls and women are suffering exactly the same. Misogyny is pervasive and girls and women are suffering much the same today as they were 50 years ago, there is just a (somewhat) larger push today to do something about it. Unfortunately there is a nearly equally large push to reinforce misogyny as an institution.
How you've been dismissed and told that society "sees you" as a white man is wrong and your experience is unique and should be acknowledged. You maybe have suffered from transphobia, queerphobia, and discrimination and prejudice towards nonbinary people. You should be able to understand the difference in the way discrimination towards men and nonbinary people functions. In that non-binary people come up against constant barriers across all levels of society, that is to say they face systemic institutional discrimination. Much the same, misogyny is not merely one person who hates women. Misogyny is a society that discriminates against women, it is media that perpetuates discrimination against women, it is education and social reinforcement of discrimination against women. Its systemic, its present at all levels and points of society. You have to actively work against it to counteract all the misogynistic propaganda you're fed.
Men deserve body liberation too, I never said otherwise. But people in this comment thread were saying that body image issues with representation in media are the same for men and women. And that simply isn't true.
And both cis men and cis women don't experience body policing in even remotely similar ways to nonbinary people. Most women don't need a letter from a psychiatrist costing thousands of dollars to get permission to have a body they can enjoy.