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this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2023
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Dear men: stfu, you are not allowed to have any problems. Get back to your stoicism.
Sincerely, Feminists who claim to care about men.
Nah, men can and do have problems. This post is an example of a man problem. There are people on this post trying to claim that men and women suffer equally in this regard and arguing with people who are pointing out that this is wrong.
Men suffer from toxic body standards and would greatly benefit from body positivity and better representation in media. But men aren't (as an entire class of people) getting harassed as 10 year olds by 40 year old men making comments about their bodies. Men aren't (as an entire class of people) having relatives make open comments about the size of their secondary sex characteristics and their bodies in general. As a class you don't experience this. Some individuals might, I've rarely met women who did not experience body policing from their earliest memories, ive rarely met women who have never experienced sexual harassment. The statistics are crystal clear in this regard.
Again, body positivity and better representation for diverse body types would be great for men too. No one is saying otherwise. Even that isn't enough for women, because institutional misogyny exists at all levels of society and in nearly all people in society. Even well meaning and otherwise progressive people can and are misogynist. Even your family and friends are. Its impossible to simply change one thing. It requires a society wide change in tolerance for bigotry.
/*Pokes circumcised dick.
/*Looks at the countless men living their lives recieving no emotional support.
/*Looks at male suicide rates.
/*Looks at male domestic abuse rates.
/*Looks at history of men getting lynched.
/*Looks at what happens when a man wears a bun, has long hair, has piercings, has any sort of distinguishing features.
/*Looks at classic stereotypes of "fat stupid man"
/*Looks at people casually calling men fat.
/*Looks at stats showing men are more then twice as likely to face assault in public, are twice as likely to experience assault causing bodily injuries, are twice as likely recieve major injuries...
Like how you can look at the male suicide rates and just "nah there's nothing deeper here" is beyond me.
I never said that men do not suffer in any way, I said that women's body image issues are systemic ones that affect us for all our lives and from nearly everyone in our lives. It happens to every woman. Men's body image issues are not systemic ones. Body shaming is a thing, but its not a social institution to severely sexually harass and assault men and boys. Almost every woman will experience sexual harassment and assault to some degree. It affects the entire class of women.
So a bunch of men experience the same thing completely independently from each other, and you're here just assuming there aren't systemic processes at play? Like do you just think men have some biological affinity for suits and ties? or Jeans and T-shirts? Or it's just a coincidence or what? Like we live in a world of cause and effect, everything you see in society is a matter of systemic influences.
There are systemic problems for men as well. This conversation has gone largely beyond its scope, that being the way that body image issues for women are unique and particularly abhorrent. Misogyny is a system that also affects the lives of men by devaluing specific activities, clothes, opinions, personality traits etc. that society associates with women and girls. It reinforces misogynistic principles and affects the lives of women too. Men should be allowed to dress how they want to (so should women), work what jobs they want to, present themselves however they want to, and so on. All those things also affect women and the majority of them are based around discrimination towards women. "Pink is girly and therefore boys shouldn't like pink" only functions if you think that being girly is bad or worse or lesser.
But there's lots of systemic issues in society. Misogyny affects the entire class of women directly and the entire class of men indirectly. There are other systems that devalue men such the prison industrial complex, the military industrial complex, rape culture that discourages male victims from coming forward, and the wage slavery of late stage capitalism. Those things also affect women. And intersectional feminism examines the way that those systems interact and build upon one another. Misogyny is one of the most abhorrent things man has ever created, and me and all my friends live with and struggle against misogyny every single day. I think the scale of the problem is hard to understand if you don't talk to a lot of women about their struggles. And when we do speak up more often than not we're barely acknowledged at all, look at the backlash to misogyny in video games or the backlash to the epidemic of rape on college campuses. Those problems have never adequately been addressed in any capacity. When its women's issues a quarter of society listens and cares enough to acknowledge the problems we face, half of society is ambivalent and does not react at all, and the remaining quarter actively believe in misogyny.
Can you define your use of misogyny?
The system of violence, subjugation, discrimination, hatred and prejudice that directly oppresses women.
And your definition of misandry?
A hypothetical system of discrimination against directly and specifically men. I do not agree that this system exists. Our ruling class is patriarchal and men hold significantly disproportionate amounts of power in society. There is no system of discrimination that affects all men as a class. There exists biases and discrimination against men, but nothing that does so using the structure of a system and through institutional power.
So you wouldn't actually consider societal pressures against men as misandry? You wouldn't consider the structures that force men to disregard their own emotions to take on provider roles as misandry. You don't see men commiting sucide at 3 times the rate of women significant enough of a qualifier? You don't see how influences like these connect back to men having to be "hard". You don't see how men are used and disregarded by society? Like I am literally missing a piece of my body, and it's just socially accepted.
Like men aren't just in power, men are pushed towards power.
And... I just realized you acknowledge toxic masculinity. So toxic masculinity does effect all men, on societial and institutional levels, which fits your definition of misandry.
What would you call an individual's feeling of hatred of or superiority to women? That's the popular definition of misogyny, not the systemic issues. Usually the system itself is called the patriarchy.
Likewise, an individual's feelings of hatred or superiority to men is popularly called misandry, which absolutely exists. I don't think there's any such thing as a "matriarchy" systemically oppressing men anywhere in the world.
Piss off with the oppression olympics please.
That phrase is meaningless lol, what part of my comment are you saying that to? The horrifying things that women experience every single day? Is the lived experiences of women and girls "oppression olympics" to you?
Yes! Literally yes! You're close to getting it!
"Women have it worse" is participating in oppression Olympics and it's belittling men's problems. I am not disputing the facts of how bad women have it. I don't think anyone in this thread is.
I'm saying it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand, and at BEST it's a distraction.
This isn't a men's space. This is a public forum. I'm allowed to respond to anti feminism here and I will. That's your own problem if you do not like it. And you're openly using anti feminist nonsense yourself, shocking you didn't like my initial comment.
True, you're allowed to come in here and pick a fight if you want to but I don't see why you would want to.
I'm not picking a fight. I have been patient and fair in all my responses. I've already said this many times, but people were already talking about the way women suffer from body policing when I first viewed this post.
Your very first post was saying "men's issues don't matter because women have it so much worse"
My first comment was that men do not experience body policing the same ways women do. That if you disagree you probably don't understand misogyny. I never said that men's issues don't matter.
So you mean, this meme should piss off? Because it is what started the oppression olympics.
Only if you read it as "women's issues don't matter because men also have issues" which is honestly a problematic place for your mind to go. And clearly not the intent.
Have you ever heard of "two for flinching"? That was (I hope) a thing back in my school days, whereby another boy would mime a physical attack, like a punch to the face, or body slam. When you instinctually recoiled, the other boy would delightedly proclaim, "two for flinching," and punch you hard in the arm, twice. The message was clear.
Men as a class certainly do get policed by boys, girls, and adults about affect, height, weight, voice change, et cetera. I say this not to dismiss or downplay what girls experience, but to say that certainly happens. In fact, I'm certain that it's two sides of the same coin, and it all needs to go away.
Dear confused men (hashtag: not all men): You have lots of problems. The vast majority are not caused by women. One of your problems is trying to blame us for many of the harmful things you do to yourselves, or that patriarchy/toxic masculinity does to you. Another problem is loathing it when women try to help you by explaining this to you but it isn't what you want to hear bc it isn't stroking your ego (or other bits). So there really isn't much else to be done - your problems are yours to solve, and all we can do is try some damage control for ourselves while you guys bang your heads against the floor.
Sincerely - Feminists, who care about men, but not to the point of our own destruction any longer.
Thank you, oh glorious and righteous Angel of Feminism, for educating us lowly male peasants on Our Problems.
No one was blaming you all for shit until you came in here belittling male issues out of nowhere.
Bunch of feminists came in this thread and picked a fight. Piss off.
The meme is belittling feminism and/or women's issues. If you don't want to start a discussion, do not post provocative memes. Otherwise live with the discussion that will ensue.
No it wasn't. It was pointing out that unrealistic body standards for men are never part of the conversation, despite being so blatant.
So you feel like whenever people talk about how there are unrealistic body standards for women they also have to mention and talk about unrealistic body standards for men.
But at the same time you complain about feminists allegedly talking about feminist issues in discussions about men's issues.
I feel like something doesn't sound right with that logic...
Ummm... First of all men are not a collective, but aside from that...
Women are complicit in toxic masculinity, and patriarchy, you are aware of that right? Like women have the same ingrained societal baises.
It drives me insane that the academics that created the concept of toxic masculinity would be so friggen sexist in their connotations. That seems like a basic ethical consideration for someone studing gender, but apparently not!
Ideological holes.
(Proceeds to watch the subject bang his head repeatedly, injuring himself with the very same arguments he thinks he is making. Pointing out failure to read comprehensively might help, but more likely only increase the intensity by which he injures himself. It is a sad sight, one of many. She must move on.)
pee pee
poo poo
This is not what anybody is saying, except for the meme bit towards women. Did you read the top line on it?
It's absolutely the tone. You're not allowed to complain because we women have it worse. That's the message that's being sent across right now.
That is combative, dismissive, and by the way totally wrong. If the feminists in this thread actually gave a shit about men, they'd be listening, not lecturing. They came here to pick a fight.
No, people in this thread were saying that men and women suffer the same from body image policing. Which isn't true. Like I said in my initial comment, if that offends you then you don't understand how misogyny works.
Show me the posts.
And not "the same TYPE OF body image policing" because you're insane if you don't think that's the case.
Show me the posts where people say men face the same degree of body image policing
And then explain why, even then, being combative and dismissive is in any way a good idea.
Again, I think you came here to pick a fight, and that offends me because that's how men's issues are always silenced.
You can read through the thread yourself, there was a massive comment chain already here when I made my initial comment. I'm not going to read and summarize it for you lol.
I think I've already more than explained how women's body image issues are attached to systemic institutional issues that exist across society in my other comments. Feel free to debate against any points I've made, but I'm not going to continue reiterating myself.
I came here to respond to anti feminist takes in the thread and to provide a counter to them.
EXHAUSTIVELY, yes. Thank you. We get it. We agree.
Now please, STOP
You're talking like you have some kind of group authority or like this is specifically an anti feminist space that I'm disrupting. I'm allowed to comment here and will if I want to.
Don’t poke it. It might bite!
It's not an anti-feminist space that you're disrupting. It's also not a feminist space where the topic of discussion is women's problems. It's a neutral space that happened to talk about men's issues right now and y'all came in here with the "BUT WOMEN!!!!" stuff and that really bothers me. Men really don't have any safe spaces to talk about our issues, and as you can see it's also difficult to even bring them up in neutral spaces without being shut down by people like you.
I never shut anyone down. You can talk about men's issues. This is not a space exclusively for men. This is an open forum, and I am allowed to counter misinformation I read here. I'm an equal member of this board, and misinformation about women here affects me. I have every single right to say something here when I come upon such things. You are free to make a community excluding the voices of women if you so choose, this is not your community and how it works here is not up to you.
Bullshit.
This is you, coming into a thread, belittling and shutting down conversation about men's issues.
You claim you're here to refute certain other posts but I don't see any posts claiming what you say, and even if they do exist you absolutely failed to even acknowledge that men do have similar problems here.
Not "I understand, I just want to contextualize this"
Not "I sympathize, because this is how women feel"
Just "fuck your problems, women have it worse"
So yeah, you have the right to say bullshit, and I have the right to call you out on it.
You've been aggressive towards me from your first comment to me. I have only ever responded to you fairly and bluntly. To say that I'm coming here and saying "f*** your problems" is rich given all the rest of the things you've said to me. I have never once denied that men have problems, I have stated several times my belief that body positivity and better representation for diverse body types in media would go a long way to helping men and boys with body issues. You haven't even mentioned one thing you think could help men and boys with body issues.
Acknowledging the reality of misogyny does not diminish the suffering of any individual man. Trying to equate them is wrong however, and its misinformation about the nature of misogyny. All women I know have suffered from misogyny. It makes me very uncomfortable seeing misinformation be spread about women, and I'm not going to stay silent when I see it.
Theoretically yeah, but if you go to every single place where any men talk about any issues they have and start "acknowledging" all over the place it drowns out the original male problems. Especially if you don't even preface your comment with an acknowledgement of the issues men face, of the "lived experience" of men, to borrow a feminist term. You just go straight into "fuck everything y'all are saying, let's talk about women".
It's endemic in the greater social discussion, that's why I'm being so aggressive with pushing back against you. Men don't even have safe spaces to talk about this stuff because they get taken over by alt right misogynists. And whenever we're in a neutral space you people show up like moths to a light. The effect is to silence us.
Yeah, as a fucking qualifier. As a footnote. It does not sound sincere, and even if it is it's a severe afterthought. And it's still drowned out by the bulk of your message: How Bad Women Have It.
I'm going to respond in short terms because we're reiterating a lot.
I did not start the discussion surrounding women's experiences here, other commenters were already talking about it when I first viewed the thread.
I sincerely believe body positivity and better representation in media will be greatly beneficial to body image for men and boys. That goes along with greater tolerance of femininity in men, combating social stigma against men, and addressing power structures like heteronormativity and racism that affect queer men and black men. You have never responded to my proposed solutions, when I am responding to you I have been responding to what you say.
I was responding to misinformation. I have no obligation to counter these narratives with "i know your lives are hard too but can you stop spreading misinformation about women". I came to this thread, I saw misinformation, I replied to that misinformation. That's all.
This space is equally for me as it is for you. This is not a men's space. I am imposing on nobody by being here and commenting.