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this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2023
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Okay, so firstly I never said that body positivity and diverse representation of body types didn't also need to take into account body image standards for men. I was responding to people in the comments of this post who were essentially saying "body image issues for men" and "body image issues for women" are the same in terms of how they affect men and women respectively. Which isn't true, and we can easily see why when discussing the systemic issue of misogyny and the way women have their bodies policed throughout their entire lives and by their family friends coworkers peers and society at large including all forms of media. Body image issues for women are related to societal misogyny, and affected by continuous sexual harassment and assault starting when we are children. It happens everywhere, including from your own family.
This continues to this day. A couple years ago I volunteered at a youth group, and can confirm with certainty that the next generation of girls and women are suffering exactly the same. Misogyny is pervasive and girls and women are suffering much the same today as they were 50 years ago, there is just a (somewhat) larger push today to do something about it. Unfortunately there is a nearly equally large push to reinforce misogyny as an institution.
How you've been dismissed and told that society "sees you" as a white man is wrong and your experience is unique and should be acknowledged. You maybe have suffered from transphobia, queerphobia, and discrimination and prejudice towards nonbinary people. You should be able to understand the difference in the way discrimination towards men and nonbinary people functions. In that non-binary people come up against constant barriers across all levels of society, that is to say they face systemic institutional discrimination. Much the same, misogyny is not merely one person who hates women. Misogyny is a society that discriminates against women, it is media that perpetuates discrimination against women, it is education and social reinforcement of discrimination against women. Its systemic, its present at all levels and points of society. You have to actively work against it to counteract all the misogynistic propaganda you're fed.
Men deserve body liberation too, I never said otherwise. But people in this comment thread were saying that body image issues with representation in media are the same for men and women. And that simply isn't true.
I have a question! Why is it that when men police men it's toxic masculinity, but when women police women it's misogyny?
Anyways I disagree with your entire premise basically because of toxic masculinity. Men are degraded into the ground to the point that they aren't even willing to self express. If you look at society you'll see women have countless different, more expressive options for expressing themselves. Yes they recieve criticism, they also recieve support.
Like all I did was paint my nails, and wear bright colours, and yesterday I got called fruity 😂
Like have you ever had to worry that painting your nails could cost you your job?
Im not sure what you're referring to with the men policing men and women policing women bit. Misogyny is perpetuated by everyone, not exclusively women.
And you're right the problems of toxic masculinity are important to talk about, a lot of those problems are themselves indirectly related to misogyny. "Painting your nails is girly and therefore wrong" only works if we presuppose that being girly is lesser and wrong. Theres much more to toxic masculinity than just that of course, but a lot reinforces misogyny or is built upon it.
Not really. It’s also a challenge to the status quo, and people don’t like that in general. By that reasoning, cutting your hair short should’ve been seen as “manly, better and right”, but women who did that were initially frowned upon. Because it’s challenging the status quo, and privileged people who see no issue with the current society see that as a threat to it.
Yes and the status quo is "painting your nails is for girls and therefore wrong for boys".
Women being discouraged from doing things or looking a certain way or having certain personality traits because those things are "manly" or "boyish" is an aspect of misogyny. Men are the ruling class, women are the subservient class and are not allowed to adopt the guise and the attitudes of the ruling class.
So women not being able to do boyish things is misogyny but men not being able to do girlish things is misogyny too? How does that make sense? You realize there are women perpetrating that too, right? At what point does something turn into misandry in your opinion?
Yes, women are subservient. Men cannot act like the subservient, women cannot act like the ruling class. Both are predicated on women being lesser and subservient.
So how do you explain TERFs having an immense hatred for men as a whole and actively insulting and rejecting any biological male trying to escape a situation where they’re clearly not feeling comfortable? Do you genuinely think those people who call for a matriarchy to replace the patriarchy are upset at men “acting subservient”?
TERFs do not rule society. They are not the ruling class. They have not created a system of violence and discrimination that affects all men at all levels of society.
And what does that have to do with my question? You explained the reasoning you think is behind every discrimination against people trying to break societal norms. I brought you an example of discrimination against people trying to break societal norms that definitely doesn’t fit your definition. So that would, in theory, prove that such discrimination is not based on what you think it is (or at least, not entirely). If you still think that type of discrimination against males is misogyny you should refute that part of my argument. I never said TERFs rule society, but if they discriminate against males on the basis of something different than what you said, why is it so unthinkable that the ruling class might think in a similar way?
Just a rando passing by. I wanted to say I really appreciate you breaking this down. This type of head to head debating is what I was really hoping to find on Lemmy.
Misogyny is a system of violence and discrimination against women as a class across all levels of society. Like homophobia against gay people as a class, racism against racial minorities as a class, and so on.
And a power structure is to the benefit of the ruling class. The ruling class is not systematically discriminated against and would not allow any systematic discrimination against them. So there is no systemic discrimination against the ruling class. The ruling class is composed of white heterosexual cisgender men, and there are no power structures against them on.
When men police men, they reinforce body images that appeal to the male gaze, I.e. toxic masculinity. When women police women, they reinforce body images that appeal to the male gaze, I.e. misogyny.
I guess