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this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2023
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How much time would you say you dedicate to investigating men's issues vs women's issues?
As a woman and my friend group being mostly women anything that affects women I hear about. I have listened plenty of times to men talking about the problems they face. I'm aware of the challenges imposed on men by society, many of which are directly related to and affected by misogyny and toxic masculinity. I'm not a sociology researcher by any means, I see studies I come across and listen to people talk about problems they face. I have my own personal experiences with men and those of my friends family and partners past and present.
I don't take issue with discussion of men's issues, thats objectively good. It does not have to be to the dismissal of misogyny though.
Could you put a number on it? Like... for every 10 studies/articles on women's issues you read, how many men's issues studies would you be reading? 10 to 10? 10 to 5? 10 to 2?
Or let's say you've spent idk... 200 hours looking into women's issues, talking to women, etc... How many hours have you listened to men, or researched their issues? 200:200, 200:100, 200:50? (not counting debates) Your best ballpark.
Like how many men's forums are you subscribed to?
I cannot adequately answer that question, and its complicated by many studies I've read being surveys of both men and women. I also am a woman, so I have my own first hand experiences of misogyny.
I'm subscribed to forums that are about things that affect both men and women, but as I have less to contribute in the way of advice and assistance for men I do not subscribe specifically to any of them. Doesn't mean I don't see any of their content however.
You should definitely take the leap! If you can approach male spaces without bias you'd gain deeper perspective into these issues.
I am aware of what issues affect men. I am aware of social pressures on men. I am also aware of the ways that men as a class have privilege and how they both benefit from and suffer because of misogyny.
You are in quite a position to be saying that I need a deeper perspective on gender issues.
I don't see how you can make that claim at all when you don't even read male forums, much less can't even put a vague number on your own exposure.
Here's a good article from a woman that lived as a man for 18 months.
Multiple competing perspectives are crucial. You are not immune from bias.
Yes the one article about that. And yeah men suffer things too, but they do not as a class suffer from a power structure across all levels of society. ๐ Misogyny and the ways toxic masculinity sometimes disadvantages men are not the same things. I'm not gonna reiterate it again lol. You can re-read my other comments.
Men literally can't suffer from a power structure by your definition of those terms. It's not that men don't experience oppression from power structures, it's that your definition of power structures is oppression by a "ruling class", and you see men as that "ruling class", so by your definition they can't be oppressed by their own power structure. It has nothing to do with men as individuals.
THIS is why you need to expand your perspective. That line of reasoning is complete mental gymnastics. It's friggen hilarious how feminists justify their own bigiotry, and reinforce the perceptives they claim cause so much harm.
Like you may not believe it's moral, but your fundamental perspective is "men are in charge". I find it like.... interesting as fuck that this is what feminism has looped back to. Shit like this makes me think that as a species we are really just too petty or too stupid to get past our own biases.
Yes, you're correct. Men do not suffer from a power structure. There is no society where a ruling class of women are enforcing a powr structure of hatred and prejudice against men.
Except toxic masculinity shows that there are misandrist power structures that men suffer from, which means your definition of power structures isn't encompassing.
You are more concerned about who you see as in charge then the actual victimization, which ironically is toxic masculinity.
๐
No, the ruling class is composed of white heterosexual cisgender men and there are no power structures that discriminate against or commit acts of violence against them on any of those bases. There are no systems of class wide discrimination against white people, heterosexual people, cisgender people, or men.
The actual victimization is against the marginalized, who suffer from systemic and institutional violence perpetuated by power structures. Youre still having a hard time with the concept of systems of power and their intersections. Plenty of men suffer consequences of misogyny, like toxic masculinity, and with other systems of power like the military industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, wage slavery under late stage capitalism, discrimination and prejudice against homelessness, and classism. But there is no power structure discriminating against men as a class. It simply does not exist, the ruling class of men who hold power in our society would not allow themselves to be discriminated against in any way. So men as a class are not discriminated against by a power structure.
Goal post moving again. So now it's not enough to show there's systemic oppression of men?
What do I need to prove? Lay it out. Because I've shown you're wrong on every level, I've shown you the contradictions, I've shown evidence of systemic misandry, and now you're deflecting to complaining about cisgender white people?! Like duuude I don't think you're genuine. You're choosing to stick your head in the sand.
You can't prove it because the ruling class is composed of men who would not allow themselves to be discriminated against. There is no systemic discrimination of the class of men. Some men suffer systemic discrimination from power structures, but there is no system of violence and discrimination against men as a class.
As a class. Read it again. Nice and slow, as a class. All women suffer from misogyny, every single one. There is no equivalent thing that all men suffer from. Because the ruling class is composed of men who would not allow themselves to be discriminated against. So there is no system of discrimination against the class of men.
You're not understanding what this conversation is even about lol ๐