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Buffed af (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Eccehom@lemmy.world to c/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago

The thing is on both sides it's for the male gaze. Women are are objectified for men (look how sexy she is, don't you want this?), and men are objectified for men (look how strong and handsome he is, don't you want to be like him?)

[-] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 35 points 1 year ago

men are objectified for men (look how strong and handsome he is, don't you want to be like him?)

If you think women aren't enjoying the male eye candy, I have some news for you

[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

Reread my comment and you'll find I never said or claimed that. But that's not the primary reason it's done. Women aren't the primary demographic for comic books and comic book movies. Superhero men are drawn the way they are for the male gaze, and women are drawn the way they are for the male gaze. If some women like it too, that's just a bonus for the publishers. This translates onto the screen.

[-] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

My dude, I'll put it plainly, I think you might be gay. There's no way you look at a ripped, naked Chris Hemsworth butt and think "that scene was for men"

[-] Fedizen@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Its a male power fantasy. It isn't "I want to sex up Chris Hemsworth" its "I want to be an absolute flesh monster like this guy" its about the idea of male success and dominating others. Written by dudebros for dudebros.

[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

That'll be news to my wife! (Also, you assumed I'm a man. I am, but you still assumed.)

[-] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Actually, the statement works whether you're male or female

Think about it

[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Haha that's fair

[-] mrpants@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 year ago

As a straight male I feel nothing looking at buff men and I can assure you it's the same for many other men. We truly don't feel much looking at them and they're not presented this way for our gaze.

About the only guys I know that do care are caring because they're insecure about their own bodies. Especially friends who exercise regularly to try to achieve these physiques.

[-] Star 2 points 1 year ago

Whether it works on you or not. Whether it succeeds or not... The intent of the portrayal is a masculine power fantasy. Hell, it might be for the writer. Tony Stark (and 80% of all Marvel-men's) 'I'm an asshole but you love me for it' vibe is the same thing really.

[-] LadyAutumn 2 points 1 year ago

That proves the point then doesn't it? The way society assigns value to women based on their perceived attractiveness to men is attached to misogynistic propaganda. We tell girls how to look when they're six months old. They already know they have to be deathly thin by the time they're 10. Many girls developing eating disorders in fucking middle school. They almost only see women who exactly fit societies definition of attractiveness in every single movie. They get bullied, they see other girls being bullied for their weight. The size of their breasts becomes a subject of mockery when they're not even in puberty yet. Their family members, their parents, will impose standards upon them. Their friends will, their teachers, every single adult they ever encounter.

So you might see this and think nothing, just a bunch of buff guys. And that perfectly demonstrates it. This has no affect on you, you do not suffer oppressive conformation pressure due to every single aspect of your body and appearance. You don't see yourself as having no value because you don't look exactly like them, you don't have every single person in your life every single piece of media in your life telling you that you have no value because you don't look like them. We do, that's something we deal with every single day. That's something that literally kills us, that contributes immeasurable suffering into the world. It's not even close to the same.

[-] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

No one was even TALKING about that, why do you have to come here with your "oh women have it worse". WE KNOW. THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S GREAT FOR US EITHER.

Jesus.

[-] LadyAutumn 2 points 1 year ago

The commenter I am responding to made other comments, you should read them.

Also saying women have it worse doesn't even come close to it, you should re-read my comment.

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[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

That's great for you. I'm glad that you're secure in your self image. The people that these are targeted towards aren't.

[-] Fedizen@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I think the "steroid guy is how all men should look" isnt coming from women but rather "alpha dudebro culture" that has no interest in asking women what they want (that would be gay/beta etc)

[-] Veltoss@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago
[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Are you saying my comment is sexism or the practice is sexism?

[-] Veltoss@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Why not both? Objectifying people can be sexist, and your comment was clearly sexist. They're not mutually exclusive.

[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

How is my comment sexist?

[-] ARk@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

...no? Have you actually hung out with real people?

[-] ch00f@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

My partner and I tried to come up with an example of a character built for the female gaze. The best we could do was Idris Elba as a Jinn from 3000 Years of Longing.

Edit: I think you all are missing the point.

From Wikipedia

In cinematic representations of women, the male gaze denies the woman's human agency and human identity to transform her from person to object — someone to be considered only for her beauty, physique, and sex appeal, as defined in the male sexual fantasy of narrative cinema.

So while women might like looking at the men in Magic Mike or watching nameless romcoms, the women in the stories have no agency. The men might serve their every need and save them from whatever situation, but the men are still doing all the things, and they follow the men-in-charge storyline.

[-] axtualdave@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago
[-] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

Any male character from Twilight? Any male romcom character?

[-] ch00f@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Twilight? The movie where the dude makes all the decisions and routinely threatens the life of the girl who has negligible agency?

Sure, women like it, but it’s written with the archetype of the man being macho and in charge. I.e. the Male Gaze.

[-] Tedesche@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Been reading this thread and honestly, the only thing you've convinced me of is that the concept of the male gaze has become so diluted through expansion that's it's effectively meaningless.

Bella Swan? Oh, she's written to appeal to the female fantasy of being protected by a big strong man who is so emotionally devoted to her that being separated from her drives him to suicide. I.e. the Female Gaze.

See what I did there?

[-] ch00f@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The part you’re missing is agency. It’s not just about what appeals to men or women. Whether or not Bella is in a situation that a woman might envy, she does nothing in the story. She is an object to be fawned over and protected.

I mean isn’t it a little odd that apparently men and women both like movies where men do everything? Maybe that’s a trend worth investigating?

If you want a Female Gaze movie, find a movie where the man is reduced to an object that does nothing while women run the show. It’s shockingly hard to do.

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[-] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago
[-] zalack@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's still the male gaze. Most women I know don't care about bicep size. It's one of those things men do to look more like other men they think have good bodies.

The scene with Tony Stark chopping wood is much closer to the female gaze, according to my friends at least. For them it's all about the forearms and in general the type of body you get from real physical labor, not the kind of body you get from the gym

[-] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Most women I know don't care about bicep size.

Bruh

[-] BackStabbath@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

As someone mentioned, literally almost any male romcom lead.

[-] ch00f@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Disagree. They generally fall into the male gaze as well. Not necessarily physically, but the roles they play are generally cool collected dude that calls all the shots and/or saves the girl. Something men want to emulate.

Also they’re almost always rewarded with the love of the woman.

[-] Lorela@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Surprised you could only think of Idris! Would say he's definitely female gaze in most of his roles. Off the top of my head, and as a woman who talks about celeb 'crushes' with other women, the tops are:

  • Stanley Tucci in literally anything.
  • Tom Hiddleston (Loki had way more female attention than Thor)
  • Jack Black as Bowser
  • David Harbour as Jim Hopper
  • Sean Austin (in general, but also as Bob in ST)
  • Paul Rudd (again, in almost anything)
  • Pedro Pascal (particularly as Joel)
  • Hugh Jackman in musicals (as opposed to being Wolverine)

All examples of men who, for the most part, are not obvious sex symbols in their roles, all of whom women go absolutely wild for.

[-] ch00f@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I think you're ignoring the non-physical aspects of Male Gaze.

The problem with your examples, is that in most of the stories/roles you listed, women don't do anything. Unless the story does something to elevate women beyond passive objects, it's still written for the Male Gaze where men make are in charge and make all the decisions.

[-] Lorela@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Hmm, I see your point now I've looked up the actual theory of female gaze.

It seems in the modern social media space, female gaze has been used to mean something more like "the male characters who women find attractive are the ones that show more emotional, loving, nurturing and supportive traits". So if used this way, it's not a direct contrast to male gaze. Maybe we need to call that observation something different!

I wonder if Bob (Sean Austin) does fall into the proper definition though? His character does exist for the most part to lift every other character around him, especially Joyce Byers.

[-] ch00f@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Yay! Real conversation!

Thanks for taking the time to look into it. I haven’t watched The Last of Us, but from your description, it sounds right.

[-] Lorela@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

TLOU is good and potentially fits the criteria, I'm not sure actually, as the main female character is a child so inherently vulnerable and kinda reliant on this achey old man to ferry her through the apocalypse. Would still recommend, I cried like a baby through certain parts.

The Sean Astin character I'm referencing is in Stranger Things S2. I think has at least one potential example of female gaze (as a compliment to Winona Ryder's character).

Stranger Things probably isn't great for other metrics though, like the Bechdel test.

[-] ch00f@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Oh my bad. Mixed up the shows! Yeah I’ve seen S2! Completely forgot he was in it. Sean Astin is a good pick. Also killing him off so soon and so unceremoniously is an absolute crime.

[-] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago

Just a tangent: In my film class back in school, they defined the male gaze by what the camera focuses on, i.e. does it mimic what a straight, male viewer would focus on. Whether a character is "designed for the male gaze" is kind of squishy, and debatable, but the mechanical, film-studies definition of male gaze is indisputable. Once you see it, you can't unsee how many times a female character is introduced by panning up her body.

[-] hungryphrog 6 points 1 year ago

Exactly. This is pretty much what I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words.

[-] ch00f@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

ITT, people who think attractive man = female gaze.

[-] Tedesche@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Man, you shifted those goalposts fast! You've been doing this a long time, haven't you?

[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

What goalposts did I shift and where did I shift them to?

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this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2023
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