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this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2023
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The thing is on both sides it's for the male gaze. Women are are objectified for men (look how sexy she is, don't you want this?), and men are objectified for men (look how strong and handsome he is, don't you want to be like him?)
If you think women aren't enjoying the male eye candy, I have some news for you
Reread my comment and you'll find I never said or claimed that. But that's not the primary reason it's done. Women aren't the primary demographic for comic books and comic book movies. Superhero men are drawn the way they are for the male gaze, and women are drawn the way they are for the male gaze. If some women like it too, that's just a bonus for the publishers. This translates onto the screen.
My dude, I'll put it plainly, I think you might be gay. There's no way you look at a ripped, naked Chris Hemsworth butt and think "that scene was for men"
Its a male power fantasy. It isn't "I want to sex up Chris Hemsworth" its "I want to be an absolute flesh monster like this guy" its about the idea of male success and dominating others. Written by dudebros for dudebros.
That'll be news to my wife! (Also, you assumed I'm a man. I am, but you still assumed.)
Actually, the statement works whether you're male or female
Think about it
Haha that's fair
As a straight male I feel nothing looking at buff men and I can assure you it's the same for many other men. We truly don't feel much looking at them and they're not presented this way for our gaze.
About the only guys I know that do care are caring because they're insecure about their own bodies. Especially friends who exercise regularly to try to achieve these physiques.
That proves the point then doesn't it? The way society assigns value to women based on their perceived attractiveness to men is attached to misogynistic propaganda. We tell girls how to look when they're six months old. They already know they have to be deathly thin by the time they're 10. Many girls developing eating disorders in fucking middle school. They almost only see women who exactly fit societies definition of attractiveness in every single movie. They get bullied, they see other girls being bullied for their weight. The size of their breasts becomes a subject of mockery when they're not even in puberty yet. Their family members, their parents, will impose standards upon them. Their friends will, their teachers, every single adult they ever encounter.
So you might see this and think nothing, just a bunch of buff guys. And that perfectly demonstrates it. This has no affect on you, you do not suffer oppressive conformation pressure due to every single aspect of your body and appearance. You don't see yourself as having no value because you don't look exactly like them, you don't have every single person in your life every single piece of media in your life telling you that you have no value because you don't look like them. We do, that's something we deal with every single day. That's something that literally kills us, that contributes immeasurable suffering into the world. It's not even close to the same.
No one was even TALKING about that, why do you have to come here with your "oh women have it worse". WE KNOW. THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S GREAT FOR US EITHER.
Jesus.
The commenter I am responding to made other comments, you should read them.
Also saying women have it worse doesn't even come close to it, you should re-read my comment.
That's great for you. I'm glad that you're secure in your self image. The people that these are targeted towards aren't.
Whether it works on you or not. Whether it succeeds or not... The intent of the portrayal is a masculine power fantasy. Hell, it might be for the writer. Tony Stark (and 80% of all Marvel-men's) 'I'm an asshole but you love me for it' vibe is the same thing really.
I think the "steroid guy is how all men should look" isnt coming from women but rather "alpha dudebro culture" that has no interest in asking women what they want (that would be gay/beta etc)
This is just blatant sexism.
Are you saying my comment is sexism or the practice is sexism?
Why not both? Objectifying people can be sexist, and your comment was clearly sexist. They're not mutually exclusive.
How is my comment sexist?
...no? Have you actually hung out with real people?
My partner and I tried to come up with an example of a character built for the female gaze. The best we could do was Idris Elba as a Jinn from 3000 Years of Longing.
Edit: I think you all are missing the point.
From Wikipedia
So while women might like looking at the men in Magic Mike or watching nameless romcoms, the women in the stories have no agency. The men might serve their every need and save them from whatever situation, but the men are still doing all the things, and they follow the men-in-charge storyline.
Legolas?
Any male character from Twilight? Any male romcom character?
Twilight? The movie where the dude makes all the decisions and routinely threatens the life of the girl who has negligible agency?
Sure, women like it, but it’s written with the archetype of the man being macho and in charge. I.e. the Male Gaze.
Been reading this thread and honestly, the only thing you've convinced me of is that the concept of the male gaze has become so diluted through expansion that's it's effectively meaningless.
Bella Swan? Oh, she's written to appeal to the female fantasy of being protected by a big strong man who is so emotionally devoted to her that being separated from her drives him to suicide. I.e. the Female Gaze.
See what I did there?
The part you’re missing is agency. It’s not just about what appeals to men or women. Whether or not Bella is in a situation that a woman might envy, she does nothing in the story. She is an object to be fawned over and protected.
I mean isn’t it a little odd that apparently men and women both like movies where men do everything? Maybe that’s a trend worth investigating?
If you want a Female Gaze movie, find a movie where the man is reduced to an object that does nothing while women run the show. It’s shockingly hard to do.
That's simply not true. You're mistaking the character's physical vulnerability (in the context of supernatural beings, no less) for helplessness and/or passivity, of which Bella is neither.
No, that's inverting the male gaze and calling it the female gaze. The criteria for the female gaze would be based on stereotypes that appeal to women sexually. A strong man leaping to the heroine's rescue could be exactly what women want to see in their movie's men, particularly if those men are also cast as submissive to the heroine in other ways, like losing arguments with her, being the butt of her jokes, or changing in the stereotypical way women try to change men (e.g. reforming the "bad boy" into a faithful, stand-up man so the woman can have the best of both worlds, so to speak). Plenty of romantic comedies marketed to women fit those criteria.
What does Bella do in the story? Dad buys her a truck, dude saves her from a car accident, stalks her, plays baseball in front of her, then the family chips in to save her from The Tracker or whatever. She just kind of hangs out. She doesn’t even decide to move to Forks in the first place.
Also, please look up the term “Male Gaze”. It’s a real term. I didn’t invent it. And it doesn’t simply mean “stuff that men like to see.”
https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/what-is-the-male-gaze-definition/
“Reforming a bad boy” is literally a woman serving a man. Especially if the “goal” of the man is to get with the woman.
Show me a romcom where the man serves the desires of the woman and doesn’t get to fuck her at the end.
Bruh
That's still the male gaze. Most women I know don't care about bicep size. It's one of those things men do to look more like other men they think have good bodies.
The scene with Tony Stark chopping wood is much closer to the female gaze, according to my friends at least. For them it's all about the forearms and in general the type of body you get from real physical labor, not the kind of body you get from the gym
Bruh
As someone mentioned, literally almost any male romcom lead.
Disagree. They generally fall into the male gaze as well. Not necessarily physically, but the roles they play are generally cool collected dude that calls all the shots and/or saves the girl. Something men want to emulate.
Also they’re almost always rewarded with the love of the woman.
Surprised you could only think of Idris! Would say he's definitely female gaze in most of his roles. Off the top of my head, and as a woman who talks about celeb 'crushes' with other women, the tops are:
All examples of men who, for the most part, are not obvious sex symbols in their roles, all of whom women go absolutely wild for.
I think you're ignoring the non-physical aspects of Male Gaze.
The problem with your examples, is that in most of the stories/roles you listed, women don't do anything. Unless the story does something to elevate women beyond passive objects, it's still written for the Male Gaze where men make are in charge and make all the decisions.
Hmm, I see your point now I've looked up the actual theory of female gaze.
It seems in the modern social media space, female gaze has been used to mean something more like "the male characters who women find attractive are the ones that show more emotional, loving, nurturing and supportive traits". So if used this way, it's not a direct contrast to male gaze. Maybe we need to call that observation something different!
I wonder if Bob (Sean Austin) does fall into the proper definition though? His character does exist for the most part to lift every other character around him, especially Joyce Byers.
Yay! Real conversation!
Thanks for taking the time to look into it. I haven’t watched The Last of Us, but from your description, it sounds right.
Ripped dudes who show off to countless nameless faceless women? Despite performing “for” women, they are calling all the shots and definitely in charge.
so is showgirls secretly a feminist film?
I haven't seen it, but based on what I'm reading, yes actually.
You know how everyone didn't realize Starship Troopers is a satire?
Same director.
Edit: realizing now that you might have used it as an example because you're in on the joke.
Exactly. This is pretty much what I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words.
ITT, people who think attractive man = female gaze.
Man, you shifted those goalposts fast! You've been doing this a long time, haven't you?
What goalposts did I shift and where did I shift them to?
If you can't see it, I don't think I can help you.
I'm not really sure how you move goalposts in your initial claim. I don't think moving goalposts means what you think it means. Maybe you mean double standard, which I would still disagree with but it would at least make more sense here.