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this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2023
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The difference is that those men are not objectified. Yes, those bodies are unrealistic indeed, but those beefcake guys are not presented as sex objects who have no other purpose in this world than to please women.
I get the feeling that you never hang out with a group of gals on a night out
Or like
Ever
I guess I don't hang out with myself then
Oh yes, Thor is oiled up and shirtless while Natalie Portman ogles him for the entire first movie because... It looks powerful? It represents his stoicism? Definitely not a sexual objectification thing, oh no sir
Tbf you can be ogled and not objectified. The difference is that Thor absolutely is portrayed as a complex character with his own agency, or subjectivity. The whole movie is about him learning to step out of the role of warmonger and into a more mature, nurturing role of a king. That gives him a lot of subjectivity - the opposite of objectivity
Edit: So to clarify, yes Thor is part of a series of unrealistic body standards for men. But he's not objectified
Emphasis mine. Where in "Thor" is Thor dehumanized? Do the creators of the movie dehumanize him? No, if anything he exhibits more humanity as the movie goes on. Does Jane Foster dehumanize him? No, she's clearly sexually attracted to him and some scenes do focus on his body, but that's not enough to dehumanize someone. He is not a "mere object of sexual desire" because those scenes exist amid an entire movie that treats Thor with respect as a character, including Jane who gets to know him and love him. The only character who dehumanizes him could be Loki but he's clearly portrayed as being wrong
I gotta get me some of that copium, looks like the good stuff.
Or, like, learn what objectification actually means (and "cope" for that matter, what am I coping about? I'm just having an internet discussion)
So is Black Widow, but she is 100% leathered up sex symbol too and no one questions that.
Sex symbol =/= objectified. There's nothing wrong with being a sexy character. Sexual objectification is the reduction of a person or character to nothing but sex. Or, if you want a more accurate definition, you can look at Wikipedia's definition which I gave somewhere else
By that definition, no female main character of a film ever has been objectified.
No there are plenty of female characters who are portrayed as two-dimensional sex objects, just like there are male characters who are portrayed the same. But Thor is not one of them. And the existence of sex appeal around a person =/= objectification
But none of them were their film's main characters, right? I mean, by definition if the character has agency and complexity to them, they're not being objectified, and basically every main character has some degree of agency and complexity. Can you give me an example of a female film lead who is objectified by the definition you've provided here?
I think what the commenter is trying to say is that male characters tend to have more to their overall presence in movies than just their body since they are generally the protagonists, but female characters are often only there to show their bodies and have very little character depth in comparison.
Though, granted, that commenter probably has horrible taste in movies if this observation is so starkly visible to them.
You've never watched a romatic movie or chickflick have you?
It happens, but it's not pervasive. There's nothing wrong with sexual imagery in a vacuum.
The issue for women is the sheer avalanche of bullshit. Images of half naked women with unrealistic bodies are EVERYWHERE. Billboards, magazine covers, commercials, etc.
It's okay to discuss men's issues without needing to whatabout them. Women's issues are also valid. This isn't a competition it's about media creating body dysmorphia in people.
I don't disagree. In these discussions though there almost always are a few comments that try to make the case that men actually have it just as bad as women, and I think it's good to challenge that.
You can support what men have to deal with while also acknowledging that it's infinitely more oppressive towards women. I think it's often hard for some people not to mention it because it's like, yes, feminists have been talking about this exact thing for decades, why is this a realization suddenly?
But men have been told since forever to bottle things up and not acknowledge them. Men don't get to have emotions. This is not a new issue and in fact many men themselves perpetuate this problem. That isn't the exact same issue anymore.
When we finally get to a point where people are discussing it, bringing up the group who have been dealing with it for years as though men aren't allowed to to have these feelings too absolutely minimizes the initial conversation.
There is space for both conversations to happen, and both should happen. But when this happens in literally every thread trying to discuss male body dysmorphia that's not positive conversation anymore.
I agree. I'm not trying to shut down that conversation, just contextualize it a bit and have it be part of both conversations. Both conversations are linked so I don't see why that wouldn't be natural.
“i’m not trying to shut down that conversation i just don’t think your viewpoints are valid”
🤣
I think my point is that they really aren't linked. It is two groups experiencing similar things, but for a variety of reasons the context is completely different. And moreover because the conversation is essentially brand new for one group and extremely well known for the other, talking about them like they are the same cheapens the conversation around the newer group.
I'd liken it to a friend telling you about a problem they're having and instead of listening to them, starting to talk about your own similar problems. I realize that's a superficial example but I think it explains where I'm coming from.
I mean in no way to disregard or minimize the long and well documented struggle women have had with body image issues. But I do think men's body image issues deserve to be discussed on their own merit without always needing to be contextualized through the lens of women's issues.
I think they are linked, though. Objectified male bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal, the same way that objectified female bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal.
Most of the women I talk to don't really care for the ultra-built body type we tend to see in blockbusters. If they're attracted to the leads it tends to be for other reasons that are orthogonal to them being jacked.
One of the goals behind breaking down the patriarchy is removing the singular vision that our culture tends to have on a lot of issues, since our culture is run predominantly by a single demographic. I don't think sexualized imagery would ever go away, but a higher variety of that imagery that caters to a wider variety of tastes might help with body image issues.
Men feeling shitty for not being jacked, women feeling shitty for not being slim and large-breasted, black women feeling shitty about their hair, black and asian men feeling shitty about their features because so much of our beauty standards are set on white individuals... It's all particular flavors of the same underlying issue. There's no harm in adding women have been talking about this for decades. Let's team up and stop this bullshit.
I don't see a comment saying that. All I see is someone saying that it isn't a real problem for men.
The only thing you're doing here with your comments is saying "but women have it worse!" You're not here to discuss the actual issue, you're here to derail the conversation.
And the only spaces in which feminists have had these conversations is in private academic settings on the "men's issues" day of their course curriculum. To feminists, men's issues are a footnote. And that's fine--I don't expect feminists to really give a crap about how societal sexism affects men; that's not their purview and it certainly isn't on them to bring attention to those problems. But stop pretending feminists have given men or their issues equal or even just proportional time in their discussions, much less their activism.
If you think they aren’t objectified that’s your own lack of perspective.
Reminds me of the "everyone has sinful urges" anti-gay pastors
"Buff men are built for the male gaze"
My guy, I have some news for you
Oh my friend, they very much are objectified. Have you never hung around straight women or gay men? Those men are slabs of meat and that's it.
Even guys are objectified if they are pretty enough. Many women do that with movie stars.
The thing is on both sides it's for the male gaze. Women are are objectified for men (look how sexy she is, don't you want this?), and men are objectified for men (look how strong and handsome he is, don't you want to be like him?)
If you think women aren't enjoying the male eye candy, I have some news for you
This is just blatant sexism.
...no? Have you actually hung out with real people?
My partner and I tried to come up with an example of a character built for the female gaze. The best we could do was Idris Elba as a Jinn from 3000 Years of Longing.
Edit: I think you all are missing the point.
From Wikipedia
So while women might like looking at the men in Magic Mike or watching nameless romcoms, the women in the stories have no agency. The men might serve their every need and save them from whatever situation, but the men are still doing all the things, and they follow the men-in-charge storyline.
Legolas?
Any male character from Twilight? Any male romcom character?
Bruh
As someone mentioned, literally almost any male romcom lead.
Exactly. This is pretty much what I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words.
I think you have a point except for the fact that the meme is about unrealistic body standards, not objectification. So it's kinda like bringing up pancakes in a conversation about waffles
But why does the meme has to take a jab at the problems women face? It's undebatable that women are faced with unrealistic body standards all the time. And I don't get why the meme has to try and take away from that.
I'll take "someone that hasn't hang out with women for 300" Alex
I really feel like this misses the point. And it sells both men and women short.
The most cruel part of depictions like this isn't simply that the opposite sex is or isn't drooling over them. It's that they are presented as ideal and desirable physiques.
This impacts how people feel like they should aspire to look. And that impacts how they feel about their own bodies.
It is so reductive to focus just on whether these bodies are objectified by the opposite sex. It's the internal struggle people are faced with that is the real issue.
That's not just a hot take, that's straight up nuclear.