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Seconded
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2024
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As a bi person who does support trans people, I dislike pride parades b/c they make us all look bad. Now what?
Don't go to them. Seems simple.
Edit: Let me make this make sense for the people who are so eager to downvote one of their own. Let's say you attend an endangered whale conservation group, but data shows the group's actions (due to a few careless individuals) have actually led to more whale deaths than it has prevented. Then your response to someone critiquing you is "then don't join the group"? You see how that is unproductive, if not morally reprehensible?
This condescending attitude is the same type of exclusionary BS that got us into needing pride parades in the first place, you know.
"Don't think like me? You're not welcome here. We cannot accommodate a diversity of perspectives. It's our way or the highway."
And liberals wonder why right wingers accuse them of being fascists.
Ummm...
In seriousness, I don't think that the person you were replying to was saying "You're excluded." They were trying to say "Okay, you don't like them and think they shouldn't happen. In that case, don't go to them and don't support them." You're not obligated to like the same things that the rest of the LGBT community likes. That seems pretty reasonable and the opposite of fascism.
In fact, I'd say you are perfectly within your rights to vocally express your distaste for Pride parades. It's reasonable to find them distasteful while still supporting the LGBT community. You could also voice what you dislike about them and what you'd like to see change so that they better support what you'd like them to achieve for the community. I don't think that you'd be within your rights to actually stop the parades from happening, just like I don't think others would be within their rights to force you to attend.
Edit: Clearly none of you have ever heard of Horseshoe theory. Try reading a little before spouting harmful opinions on the Internet.
Did I say it was fascist to say "Don't go"? No I said implying that it's fine to exclude everyone who thinks differently, is an example of why right wingers accuse left leaning folks (who tend not to be fascists), of being fascists.
The point being that disengaging from potentially productive dialog with potential allies for arbitrary reasons, while not fascism, tends to lead to the perception of strict, unwavering, inerrant ideology, which looks very similar on the surface.
If there are 5 gays, 1 bi, and 1 trans person on an island of straight people, I believe they should all try to see past each other's differences in order to unite for their common advancement, rather than saying "oh you don't like how we do it? then don't go"
Not everyone in any community is going to agree on the correct methods of achieving common goals. You're free to try to change how the community's approach. You're free to try to build your own approach. You're also free to decide whether you want to participate or not.
I don't see how any of that excludes anyone, disengages from productive dialogue, or leads to right-wingers thinking that left-wingers are fascists.
You are talking about disengaging from dialogue, but I don't see you actually engaging in it yourself. You stated "I dislike Pride parades", then said it is exclusionary to suggest that you maybe could just choose not to attend. What I didn't see you say until well after my original comment is what you would like to see changed about the parades or engaging with others about how that might be achieved.
What? You said you don't like pride parades and the response was "don't go then". Not everything is for everyone.
Do you want everyone who enjoys pride parades to change them to specifically cater to you?
Lol no. I think that agreeing on higher standards for what kind of clothing and actions are not acceptable in public parades, would go a long way toward actually helping the LGBT+ community gain acceptance rather than hurting our image.
We will never "gain acceptance" by dressing and acting the way conservatives want us to.
Remember, these people are absolutely willing to define "being trans near children" as a sex crime. Our existence, to them, is a sick deviant perverted sex act. Two men holding hands in public is "grooming children".
When you draw these lines between the "acceptable queers" and everyone else, all you're doing is putting yourself inside of a shrinking circle. That circle will eventually shrink to the point where even you, the acceptable queer, no longer fit inside it, because our entire existence is fundamentally unacceptable to them. And when that happens, there will be no one else left to stand in solidarity with you.
I never drew that line, you did for your strawman argument. Typical lib response tbh. I never said there are "acceptable queers" and "not acceptable queers". I said we need to have standards for what is considered acceptable in the context of public parades.
Conservatives are willing to define "being trans near children" as a sex crime, mostly b/c of the lies and misconceptions they get told/reinforced by conservative politicians and pastors about LGBT+, would you agree?
And what do you think those politicians and pastors use as "evidence" that we are all sexual deviants? If you think images and photos of sexual behavior at Pride parades is not one of them, you're mistaken. It's a public display, and it's easy for them to say "why aren't these people classified as sex offenders for doing such heinous acts in public?"
I stated a simple fact: pride parades currently hurt our image. People in this thread can't seem to accept that.
And, yet, a lot of us don't give a shit if parades hurt our image with the cishets. Pride is for us. We could all show up wearing Mennonite clothing...overalls for mascs and androgynes and ankle length denim skirts for femmes...no flags, no banners, no music, no dancing, no PDA, no hand holding, nothing...just a bunch of queers in modest clothing going for a walk on a Saturday afternoon, and there would still be a large contingent of conservative cishets who would take offense just because we dare to exist outside.
The whole lot of them can get fucked.
You're talking about people who claim to genuinely believe that schools are putting out litterboxes for children who identify as cats. Conservatives don't need evidence, and never have. Genuinely, when have you ever seen a conservative make an evidence based argument against allowing our existence?
Evidence doesn't factor into their worldview. If it did, they wouldn't be conservatives. They will appeal to it when convenient, and ignore it or invent it the rest of the time. We can be as refined and polite as we like, or as depraved and deviant as we like, and it will not matter one iota to how they view us. They will still work diligently towards our extermination either way, and they will make up as many lies about us as they have to along the way.
You can try your best to be "one of the good ones", but all that means is you get to be last one in the gas hut, after there are no more bodies left for you to shovel into the incinerator.
Lmao you just did it again 🤣 you built up another strawman so you could knock it down 🤣
The reason being: No, I'm not talking about that small minority of conservatives at all.
YOU are the one being judgmental here, not them.
Did you know in fact most conservatives aren't crazy diabolical evil people? That's a perception leftists tend to have b/c they don't have any real conservative friends, they just get angry about stuff they see on the media and attribute it to all conservatives, saying "how could they support this kind of rhetoric? everyone who watches or supports this news source must be evil too!"
Turns out when you actually try and talk to them, they're people too.
Only when you dehumanize your perceived enemies, do they actually become the inhumane enemies you wished never to create.
Clearly, I just imagined that conservative politicians all across the world have been eagerly trying to legislate away our right to exist. Thank God for that. I guess it was all just a terrible dream. It must have been all those "good", "decent", "kind hearted" conservatives who stood up to stop them, rather than just spouting some bullshit about being "Socially liberal, economically conservative", or claiming that they "support gay and trans rights but just think all this woke nonsense has gone too far", and then voting for those same people anyway.
Inclusivity without something being excluded usually makes for a powder keg of likely confrontation. As it was pointed out to me recently, being tolerant of the intolerant, should not be a thing, regardless of how tolerant your society (or group, or tribe, or culture, or.... You get the point) is trying to be.
The fact is: pride is inclusive to the point of people being inclusive of it. There's a lot of people at pride events: straights (allies), gay, bi, trans, queer.... The whole rainbow is represented. With only one huge requirement: that you are inclusive enough to tolerate their views... If you are intolerant of any of them, then pride isn't the place for you.
It's the exact reason the protestors who think that the LGBTQ+ community are a bunch of sinners who will burn in hell, are turned away. The only real requirement at pride is that you tolerate other viewpoints, sexualities, sexual orientations, etc. If you're intolerant of any of it, either keep it to yourself, or stay home. That's as simple as it gets.
... At least, that's the idea anyways. There's room for debate on this point, on a case by case basis apparently; for reasons I won't get into. Some pride organizers have seen fit to exclude groups of people based on who they are, not what they believe or tolerate. This is a whole discussion unto itself and not central to the point. It's supposed to be an event where you can be who you are, free from judgement and persecution from others. If you are someone who wants to impose that judgement or persecution, then you're not welcome.
I understand these concepts, I'm not even LGBTQ+, I'm an ally, a supporter, and I have no animosity towards any people for their sexual... anything. I've been to pride events, and supported LGBTQ+ rights and the communities right to exist in all forms. I will vote with my ballot and wallet to support LGBTQ+ rights and the community on all fronts. At every pride event I've been to, there's always been a protest, predictably. There's almost always, also been a counter protest. My favorite was at a local regional pride event in a nearby town. It wasn't a large event, but the protestors were there. There were also counter protestors holding large, almost billboard sized black sheets to isolate them and their messages of hate. They were unwelcome, but since they were on public land expressing their opinion, a conditionally protected activity, they were allowed to be there, while by the same rights, the counter protestors were allowed to be there, blocking them and their signage containing hate, from being seen. It was glorious.
The only thing that a tolerant community/society should make an exception for is intolerance. Period.
So if pride isn't for you because you will not tolerate any of the communities represented, then I would advise you to stay home.
You're entitled to your opinion, and I'll fight anyone who tries to take that away from you, but I'll also fight to maintain inclusivity in an inclusive community against the intolerant. You should too, but far be it for me to tell you what to think.
Yep. Just send your kids instead
As a straight guy, I like going with my gf because the atmosphere and party is great. Also, just to show support
good for you! in my experience the vibes highly depend on the city
That makes sense
It's called "pride". If you're not proud of it then I guess just don't show up.
I am proud, and I'd like to join a movement that actually accomplishes meaningful change for the acceptance of LGBT+ people, which I believe pride parades currently do not.
I'll join the pride parade the day the goal becomes to convince others that we're just like them, with jobs, families and bills to pay. Not sex-crazed maniacs, which is the stereotype perpetuated by a small minority amplified on right wing media.
Then don't go?
noted
I have the same opinion. Pride parades often hurt the public image of the LGBT community. At least ban the leather fetish shit.
Someone else once said that they love humans, just ban all jews.
Leather is only a fetish because some people decided that it is. There is nothing inherently wrong with leather.
Ban leather fetish? You are the definition of ignorance. That is what is hurting the public image. Do you also go to a rave and tell them to dress differently? All that neon clothing is hurting your eyes? Or to any demo with people dressing as unicorns?
You underestimate the public. Who cares about leather? We care about people being ignorant dicks, about people who are obnoxious and about people who are trying to harm others. Not leather.
There is no difference between a business suit, a nipple piercing, a mini-skirt or a gag-ball. The person wearing those are what counts.
People trying to ban others, that's just sad. As long as decency laws are obeyed, who are you to judge? Fetish only exists because of ignorance. Otherwise, they would be hobbies.
Lmao can you even hear yourself speak?
Try walking up to a conservative asking for their acceptance while wearing a nipple piercing, a leather strap-on and a gag ball, and see how they respond...
You see what you did there? You equated having slightly higher standards and self respect in public (regardless of what you do in private) with conforming to extreme puritanical standards. These are not the same.
Read this and then answer my question: If the purpose of Pride parades is to gain acceptance for the LGBT+ community, who are we trying to gain acceptance from? Did you ever once stop to think about your audience, and what might help them understand you a little easier?
A Pride parade is a performance, and the audience is conservatives. How well do you think our reviews are going lately?
Of course "hear myself speak". Do you? Thinking in black and white, downgrading people for having values that they grew up with, coining them conservatives, without even knowing what that term means.
When I was a kid, a banker wasn't even allowed to turn up their sleeves in summer. Tattoos, piercings and colored hair was an instant dismissal. The same conservatives are in power still, and all that has changed. I've seen bankers with face-tatoos, braided hair in multiple colors and piercings, being openly gay. Acceptance is already here.
But pride parades are not about acceptance. They are some sort of "in your face, we are here, deal with it" gig. Like street gangs wearing colors. Not hiding. Those things only work when nobody suffers because of them.
That's how acceptance works. You don't walk up and ask for it. Acceptance happens by saturation and demonstrating that things are fine.
The problem is, street gangs cause crime and lately, pride people are just obnoxious. It's not the leather, it's the people wearing it, and how they behave. Demanding acceptance, even trying to force it. Calling others names and blaming them for all their troubles.
You don't ask for it. You don't force it. You INTEGRATE. Bit by bit. 40 years ago gay people were in hiding, pretending to be straight. Not getting jobs. Risking being beat up or being lynched.
Now, you have Trans school plays and teachers that are openly gay. The last two generations are imprinted by the fast pace of the internet. That is a new thing, people do not change that fast. But is that respected at all? No.
Internet and mobile phones weren't a thing until I was twenty-five. Things changed over decades, not years back then. What you call conservatives are simply people not catching up that fast. You've never seen a real conservative. And by the way you are talking, you must be believing that the world has always been like it is now. But it changed in the last 25 years like it didn't do since the industrial revolution 250 years ago. You seem to have no idea how far acceptance has come and how ridiculous the term conservative is. Show me a single thing from 25 years ago that's still the same.
I did walk up to plenty of so-called conservatives, and I always got their attention, and often their approval. Not always. It is about the way one does it. Being condescending, demanding, negative and juvenile won't help. Playing a role or fighting other people's fights also doesn't help. Fight for yourself and help others do the same. Individual by individual, that is how things work.
idk why you're getting downvoted tbh https://www.theonion.com/gay-pride-parade-sets-mainstream-acceptance-of-gays-bac-1819566014
Oh man, that's not the gotcha you think it is, The Onion is a satire site, they're actually parodying opinions like yours, did you even read this so called proof? You certainly didn't check the authenticity of the website in question.
Not even that far down was an obvious give away: "The parade, organized by the Los Angeles Gay And Lesbian And Bisexual And Transvestite And Transgender Alliance (LAGALABATATA)"
Lmao you think I don't know the Onion is satire? c'mon... you think I was born yesterday?
Satire is just as effective, if not more effective, at conveying points as anything else. Hence why comedians alive today are the only living philosophers.
When did I classify this as "proof"? I'm waiting...
You might be born yesterday if you think satire directly saying your own talking points is effective at proving those points. I feel like you just googled "pride sets back gay movement" and either went with the first link, or after finding out that there is seemingly no evidence or any form of actual research to back up your claim, you went with a satire website.
If someone replies to someone saying "idk why people are disagreeing with you" and then provides a link to a website, that strongly suggests to me that they're giving proof as to why the people who are disagreeing are wrong.
Hahaha you're doing the strawman fallacy, my friend.
You've built up a straw man in your head so you can knock it down.
Every one of your assumptions is incorrect.
This is one of my favorite Onion articles of all time, and I refer to it frequently when I'm on this topic.
How bout you take a break from judging and hating on internet strangers for no reason?