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‘Seismic shift’: driving unaffordable for many in US amid push toward SUVs
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2024
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I’ve heard it said that Americans purchase based on the maximal use case as opposed to the typical use case. As an American, that description makes so much sense. As an example, I live in an area where there are a lot of hills and it snows rarely, but just about everyone who can afford a 4WD SUV has one. Heaven forbid they can’t drive around on those 1-2 days a year that it snows! Meanwhile, they get shitty gas mileage driving to work the other 300-odd days of the year.
The more walkable the location of the house, the less space you need because that space is outside your house.
US cities are rapidly running out of 3rd places. There's almost no neighborhood commercial centers with a cafe and a pub/bar that you can visit for extended periods of time.
The net result is that the home and the workplace are the primary locations we can spend time in.
That somehow sounds like the primary space people spend time in should be a bar and not their home. That's insane. Though maybe it's some kind of an extrovert dream.
That's quite the straw man of my statement. You've read a ton into what I wrote.
Given that, I get to turn right around and say "okay, then we'll have no absolutely no places outside of work and home. All supplies delivered to a drop box on your doorstep so introverts never have to talk to a human."
My point was that communities historically have had places where people can choose to go and spend time in the shared space. Common examples of these spaces include cafes and bars/pubs. Geez you made me have to be stupid pedantic.
I enjoy going to shared public spaces and businesses that welcome sitting and relaxing. So sue me. I also make friends with every housecat, dog, hamster, and houseplant (if no pets are available) at parties I get roped into. I am, at best, a light duty introvert.
I spend way too much time in my house because going out to places in the US is extra work. The accessibility of places to sit and relax around my neighbors is next to nil. This isn't true when I get to visit international cities that aren't capitalist car-centric hellscapes. There, I walk to nearby places to sit and enjoy my city, not just my apartment. The world should have places to be outside the home, even if hiding in your four walls is both an introverts dream and a capitalism goal.
Meanwhile COVID loves extroverts!
Running out of 3rd spaces? LOL you only see those in museums now. See the smilodon exhibit next to the woolly mammoth exhibit and next to that is the American 3rd Space exhibit!
I had to use a unit converter, but I've lived in places housing up to seven people that weren't that big. Comfortably.
This is a conversation I had here recently as well when I pointed out to a car thread that for the money Americans pay for pickup trucks you can also buy a hatchback and a proper van, cover most use cases and not drive a tank to take kids to school. They did NOT like that.
Hatchbacks and vans are enclosed and not fun to haul stinky stuff and aren't conducive to hosing out after.
The main problem in the US is companies not making Coupe utility sized vehicles like the Subaru Brat or the El Camino. Small and light vehicles with beds. I would love a small AWD electric or hybrid truck that size that has good mileage for commuting and just enough convenience for moving cumbersome and stinky things around. The Ford Maverick is a move in the right direction, but is almost a midsized truck instead of going full on compact.
AAAAAAH, it's happening again!
Let me speedrun through this: I've never seen a pickup truck and I am in a rural place where people move stinky stuff all the time. Vans can be purchased with sealed off cabins, and with all doors open can be hosed down easily. It's fine. Nobody here has pickups. I haven't seen a pickup or known anybody to have one and everybody is fine. This is a strictly American thing and the US isn't the moon, there really isn't a unique need to use a truck bed for school runs.
You're doing the thing the man said: drive a tank to buy groceries in case you have to haul manure once a year.
It's about impossible to make this point with some Americans. Don't cause yourself an aneurysm.
I want a truck the size of a Subaru Brat, which had a shorter total length than a Honda Fit.
Is that unreasonable?
No they're just being a cunt and don't realize every truck isn't the size of a 737
No you are not. But perhaps you might consider a small and light trailer you could pull behind a sedan of even a mini-van. The costs are far, far, lower and the insurance and licensing are nearly non-existent.
unfortunately there is no such product available in the market currently.
Most close may be a triporteur (scooter with bed) or a cargo bike, with an extended battery it is enough for daily work (60-200km)
Congratulations you anecdotal experience means nothing. I see pick up trucks ALL the time in rural areas (in Germany and the US) and in the US they aren't all hulking behemoth dodge rams. Those fill the suburbs. There's nothing wrong with wanting a small compact truck for hauling stuff. Trucks like the 95 toyota hilux, 98 Ford ranger, and 92 Jeep Comanche are great for hauling stuff like used furniture or concrete powder and picking up your kids from school without looking like an Abrams tank.
Except the 2 best selling cars GLOBALLY in 2020 was the Toyata corolla and the Toyota hilux a fucking truck. The hilux was 2020′s best-selling VEHICLE in 14 countries, including Argentina, Australia, Panama, South Africa and Fiji.
You don't speak for the rest of the world
Wait, in 2020? Why not look up 22 or 23? I mean, it's not like anything weird would have impacted the market in 2020, huh? And hey, it doesn't even look that bad for your case, the Hilux and the F150 both break the top 10 in the most recent source I could find, if narrowly. The best seller I see is a SUV, and man, trust me, I don't share your defensiveness here, you are super allowed to mock those.
Now, I don't speak for the whole world, but I sure speak for myself. Since I was checking, in my location small vans and pickups all together account for less than 10% of the national market as per the most recent data (they don't even bother separating those segments, apparently). Large commercial vans and small commercial trucks are actually as big of a segment.
So yeah, anecdotally and statistically, it's exceedingly rare to see a pickup truck here. Turns out you also don't speak for the rest of the world. Because, you know, nobody does. That tends to happen with hundreds of countries and billions of people.
I live in rural Germany. The only people with these trucks are the ones that never use the bed. In fact, I've recently seen one at the hardware store. The guy bought a shelf maybe 1.5 m long. Neither did it fit in the bed, nor did it fit in the cabin. Such a worthless piece of shit.
Everyone in the trade business uses vans. For heavy duty hauling they obviously use something bigger than a fucking pickup truck.
That out of the way, I see the appeal in smaller old-school trucks. They usually have larger beds than the ridiculously oversized pieces of shit that start sprouting in urban areas.
I think people tend to pick the wrong targets in this debate. Stuff like the Ford Maverick and F150 are usually people who really don't need a truck, and most crossover/SUV drivers would be fine with a sedan. Once you get into the F250 and higher, though, you're mostly dealing with people who actually use their truck for a living. There are reasons workers in the US choose those--such as fifth wheel trailers--and there are reasons why European workers don't (except when they do).
And it's really silly. Vans for that kind of work are generally truck frames with a different back end. It doesn't make that much difference at that level. The best you can say is that the hood doesn't stick out as far and therefore visibility is better, but even that's not always true, and there are other tradeoffs with that design.
Congratulations on having a different experience! A van is too big for my tastes, you know they are basically enclosed trucks right?
I clearly said I didn't want a tank, and have no idea why you automatically equate an exposed bed with a tank. Do you know how small a Brat was?
Non-tank sized vans are available and have better aerodynamics and overall utility than a truck.
Right, but in this scenario you end up with two vehicles: a light, economical car to drive and a dedicated work vehicle. The original point is that expensive, heavy vehicles as daily drivers can be less practical and economical than mutiple cheaper, dedicated vehicles.
For some reason, this makes Americans, and especially American car people VERY angry to hear, and it's bizarre.
I don't want two vehicles that don't do what I want. I want one vehicle, that is the same size and gets the same gas mileage as a car that does what I want by having an open bed in the back instead of an enclosed hatchback.
Its like you can't read.
Note: The Subaru Brat, which is one of the example I said that I wished they sold trucks in today, was smaller than a Honda Fit. Do you think a Honda Fit is big?
No, hey, I get it. You want a cool toy, not a boring practical solution. That's legitimate. I own many things that are not the optimal answer to a problem just because I like them.
The sheer rage at the insinuation that the option may not be optimal is fascinating, though. So uniquely American. Which is what this thread is about. "The maximal use case".
For the record, I had not heard of the "Honda Fit". I guess it's like a Japanese Fiat Punto. Also for the record, what both the Fiat Punto and the Honda Fit seem to have is a back seat. But hey, again, a cool toy, not an optimal solution. Maximal use case. It's a good observation.
Considering you have absolutely no idea of what he does on a daily basis and no idea of how often he needs the vehicle for those situations. Plus no idea of his parking space. I'm not sure how you are able to tell him what he should buy.
What about a small car trailer?
How is an extra piece of equipment that is less convenient and takes up more space a better solution? Where the fuck am I going to keep that when I could just have that same space in the back of a vehicle instead of an enclosed trunk?
Either truck means something different in your language where you cannot conceive of one being small, or you are somehow opposed to a vehicle with an open bed existing at all.
Please keep offering less convenient solutions than having an open bed in the back of a car sized vehicle though, it is entertaining how fucking ridiculous the suggestions are instead of just agreeing that a smaller trucks would be a nice alternative.
Ok. We raised 4 kids in an 1800 sq foot house with one bathroom. I do not recommend the one bathroom, but the space was more than adequate.
Having said that, it does make a difference, we have the same size house now and only 2 kids left at home, but this house has a bigger main kitchen/dining area, smaller bedrooms, a separate living room for the kids, an enormous back porch/deck adding to the useable space and entertaining space is really helpful more than I had imagined.
1500 arranged right with small bedrooms and enough common area, and at least 2 bathrooms sure. It's not a small house, that's a medium size house. With an enormous porch? Hell yeah. We used to live in one of those with two other couples, it was fine. But I do think you are undercounting the value of common space.
We have two kids in a 3 bed/2 bath 1350 sq ft home. We do have a full basement, but the kids aren't really allowed down there (power tools, toy stash, etc). I guess I do hang out there some nights, but that's only because my gaming computer moved downstairs years ago when our oldest started to be able to reach the keyboard and pull key caps off it.
In our experience, you're probably not going to do a lot of entertaining while you have young kids. While one of your kids is under 3-4, and sometimes older, they're going to need naps. They're also going to have early bedtimes. Naps are mostly behind us, and we do have afternoon play dates, but the kids don't really care what space they're in as long as they're engaged and have things to do. Having an adult gathering is... very rare. We have a nice sized yard, so we tend to have gatherings outside.
I don't think we need extra bedrooms or bigger bedrooms/bathrooms. An office might be nice, but working from the basement works just as well. A toy room could be nice, but to me it would be wasted space as the kids get older and have fewer, but larger/more engaging, toys. At least around here, the extra room comes with extra walls that result in a space that's not often used (think a formal dining room).
There's also the financial side of things. We could afford a larger house, but would rather be putting any extra into 529s, our own 401ks, etc. Kid related expenses really add up before you start also thinking about a bigger mortgage payment.
On cars I agree wholeheartedly. It's way too expensive to maintain that capacity. We rent a minivan to travel but buy small car for daily use.
House I am not convinced, the value proposition is different. It really is nice to have a little extra space. Not some monstrous McMansion, but not cozy, and space for the kids to have their gaming computer stuff not inside their bedroom and my home office stuff not inside my bedroom. And moving is a pain in the ass and expensive, absolutely don't want to have to scale up if the family gets bigger.
Oh yeah the "office" they keep trying to delete from apartments and town houses. There's good evidence for psychological health in separating sleep, work, play, and relaxation spaces.
My hybrid SUV (Ford escape) has awd and gets low-mid 40s mpg on my 12gallon-600 mile tank. The trick is the awd isn’t permanently on, it’s only on when it needs the traction or I change the drive mode to AWD when I’m expecting ice/snow.
I’m always blown away seeing these blue collar guys driving around these $50-80k trucks that probably get 8 mpg. How do they afford this?
Debt to their eyeballs
Also some of them are paid very well. Any of your unionized specialty trades can easily make $150k+ a year, especially if they're willing to travel or work a lot of OT. If you're single or married with no kids, you can pretty easily afford a big fancy truck like that.
If you're willing to travel that can be more than $50k a year in per diem pay, so in two years you can easily pay off a new trailer to live in and a nice truck to haul it with. I personally know people who have done exactly this. The catch is that you need to get into a good union and do your apprenticeship and generally have your shit together. It always surprises me that more people don't know this.
Credit?
Loan on a $50k vehicle is $1000-$1500/month depending on loan term. It’s likely $80 minimum every time you refuel too.
That's why repossessions are a booming business.