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‘Seismic shift’: driving unaffordable for many in US amid push toward SUVs
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2024
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I had to use a unit converter, but I've lived in places housing up to seven people that weren't that big. Comfortably.
This is a conversation I had here recently as well when I pointed out to a car thread that for the money Americans pay for pickup trucks you can also buy a hatchback and a proper van, cover most use cases and not drive a tank to take kids to school. They did NOT like that.
Hatchbacks and vans are enclosed and not fun to haul stinky stuff and aren't conducive to hosing out after.
The main problem in the US is companies not making Coupe utility sized vehicles like the Subaru Brat or the El Camino. Small and light vehicles with beds. I would love a small AWD electric or hybrid truck that size that has good mileage for commuting and just enough convenience for moving cumbersome and stinky things around. The Ford Maverick is a move in the right direction, but is almost a midsized truck instead of going full on compact.
AAAAAAH, it's happening again!
Let me speedrun through this: I've never seen a pickup truck and I am in a rural place where people move stinky stuff all the time. Vans can be purchased with sealed off cabins, and with all doors open can be hosed down easily. It's fine. Nobody here has pickups. I haven't seen a pickup or known anybody to have one and everybody is fine. This is a strictly American thing and the US isn't the moon, there really isn't a unique need to use a truck bed for school runs.
You're doing the thing the man said: drive a tank to buy groceries in case you have to haul manure once a year.
It's about impossible to make this point with some Americans. Don't cause yourself an aneurysm.
I want a truck the size of a Subaru Brat, which had a shorter total length than a Honda Fit.
Is that unreasonable?
No they're just being a cunt and don't realize every truck isn't the size of a 737
unfortunately there is no such product available in the market currently.
Most close may be a triporteur (scooter with bed) or a cargo bike, with an extended battery it is enough for daily work (60-200km)
I know there isn't in the US because I recently tried to find one to purchase, and I am complaining about that lack of availability.
No you are not. But perhaps you might consider a small and light trailer you could pull behind a sedan of even a mini-van. The costs are far, far, lower and the insurance and licensing are nearly non-existent.
Congratulations you anecdotal experience means nothing. I see pick up trucks ALL the time in rural areas (in Germany and the US) and in the US they aren't all hulking behemoth dodge rams. Those fill the suburbs. There's nothing wrong with wanting a small compact truck for hauling stuff. Trucks like the 95 toyota hilux, 98 Ford ranger, and 92 Jeep Comanche are great for hauling stuff like used furniture or concrete powder and picking up your kids from school without looking like an Abrams tank.
Except the 2 best selling cars GLOBALLY in 2020 was the Toyata corolla and the Toyota hilux a fucking truck. The hilux was 2020′s best-selling VEHICLE in 14 countries, including Argentina, Australia, Panama, South Africa and Fiji.
You don't speak for the rest of the world
Wait, in 2020? Why not look up 22 or 23? I mean, it's not like anything weird would have impacted the market in 2020, huh? And hey, it doesn't even look that bad for your case, the Hilux and the F150 both break the top 10 in the most recent source I could find, if narrowly. The best seller I see is a SUV, and man, trust me, I don't share your defensiveness here, you are super allowed to mock those.
Now, I don't speak for the whole world, but I sure speak for myself. Since I was checking, in my location small vans and pickups all together account for less than 10% of the national market as per the most recent data (they don't even bother separating those segments, apparently). Large commercial vans and small commercial trucks are actually as big of a segment.
So yeah, anecdotally and statistically, it's exceedingly rare to see a pickup truck here. Turns out you also don't speak for the rest of the world. Because, you know, nobody does. That tends to happen with hundreds of countries and billions of people.
I never claimed to, you did. Outside of your world statistically ppl do buy trucks. They're not rare. It's not just an American thing. I'm not speaking for the world. I'm stating an objective fact.
You're just trying to walk back your condescending attitude because you realized you were PAINFULLY wrong. It's easy to shit on America (usually rightfully so) but all it showed was your own arrogance and bias.
I don't even understand how anyone could think like this if they know anything about cars. Modern trucks were designed for carrying loads (hehe) long distances through rural areas with rough to non existent roads.
You think the average guy selling mangos or hauling farm equipment still uses an ox and cart or a Citroen?
Edit: Trucks didn't barely make the list. The F series truck was the 3rd highest selling car in the world. The Silverado sits comfortably in 7th with the Hilux and Ram sitting in 9th and 10th.
Oh, I'm condescending HARD here. The mere fact that this conversation is ongoing is extremely condescending. It's extremely boring, seeing how I've had it multiple times already, so the only thing keeping me here at all is the opportunity to condescend, frankly.
FWIW, and to engage honestly with data, because data requires honesty, we're just citing different sources. I think the one I pulled, which was dated September 2023 and had the Hilux and F150 at 6 and 9, respectively. I suspect it was a "year so far" list, given the date, but it doesn't cite a primary source, so I couldn't guarantee it.
Anyway, speaking of arrogance and condescension, I live in a rural area and have ridden on the back of Citroen vans to school more than once (don't do that, it's dangerous and illegal). So... average mango seller where? Because the anwer is yes. I've also gone around on the back of a tractor a few times.
Who the hell is smug about their own ignorance? If you're going to be arrogant and condescending at least be right about what you're talking about.
Oh, you have no idea the things I can be smug about. I am very good at it. Lots of practice.
Not being smug about my own ignorance, though (although I can and I have). I'm being smug about the insane immediate ragefest you get at the insinuation that pickups may not be a great solution for a daily driver. That's a way lower level of smug. Entry level smug right there. Was doing it before you even got to this conversation and it was eeeeasy.
I think people tend to pick the wrong targets in this debate. Stuff like the Ford Maverick and F150 are usually people who really don't need a truck, and most crossover/SUV drivers would be fine with a sedan. Once you get into the F250 and higher, though, you're mostly dealing with people who actually use their truck for a living. There are reasons workers in the US choose those--such as fifth wheel trailers--and there are reasons why European workers don't (except when they do).
And it's really silly. Vans for that kind of work are generally truck frames with a different back end. It doesn't make that much difference at that level. The best you can say is that the hood doesn't stick out as far and therefore visibility is better, but even that's not always true, and there are other tradeoffs with that design.
I live in rural Germany. The only people with these trucks are the ones that never use the bed. In fact, I've recently seen one at the hardware store. The guy bought a shelf maybe 1.5 m long. Neither did it fit in the bed, nor did it fit in the cabin. Such a worthless piece of shit.
Everyone in the trade business uses vans. For heavy duty hauling they obviously use something bigger than a fucking pickup truck.
That out of the way, I see the appeal in smaller old-school trucks. They usually have larger beds than the ridiculously oversized pieces of shit that start sprouting in urban areas.
Congratulations on having a different experience! A van is too big for my tastes, you know they are basically enclosed trucks right?
I clearly said I didn't want a tank, and have no idea why you automatically equate an exposed bed with a tank. Do you know how small a Brat was?
Non-tank sized vans are available and have better aerodynamics and overall utility than a truck.
Those are called hatchbacks and are pretty awesome! Unfortunately the Civic hatchback I had for 15 years would have been better for the last 5 years I owned it if the hatch area was just a bed becauseI no longer needed a back seat but would have been 10x more convenient with an open bed in the fact same space instead of being enclosed.
They may have better coefficient of friction, but vans have a high frontal cross section. That tends to cancel out that advantage.
Right, but in this scenario you end up with two vehicles: a light, economical car to drive and a dedicated work vehicle. The original point is that expensive, heavy vehicles as daily drivers can be less practical and economical than mutiple cheaper, dedicated vehicles.
For some reason, this makes Americans, and especially American car people VERY angry to hear, and it's bizarre.
I don't want two vehicles that don't do what I want. I want one vehicle, that is the same size and gets the same gas mileage as a car that does what I want by having an open bed in the back instead of an enclosed hatchback.
Its like you can't read.
Note: The Subaru Brat, which is one of the example I said that I wished they sold trucks in today, was smaller than a Honda Fit. Do you think a Honda Fit is big?
No, hey, I get it. You want a cool toy, not a boring practical solution. That's legitimate. I own many things that are not the optimal answer to a problem just because I like them.
The sheer rage at the insinuation that the option may not be optimal is fascinating, though. So uniquely American. Which is what this thread is about. "The maximal use case".
For the record, I had not heard of the "Honda Fit". I guess it's like a Japanese Fiat Punto. Also for the record, what both the Fiat Punto and the Honda Fit seem to have is a back seat. But hey, again, a cool toy, not an optimal solution. Maximal use case. It's a good observation.
Considering you have absolutely no idea of what he does on a daily basis and no idea of how often he needs the vehicle for those situations. Plus no idea of his parking space. I'm not sure how you are able to tell him what he should buy.
I didn't? Like I explicitly didn't. I explicitly say up there that I get it and even if I think it's not optimal you get to buy stuff you like that's not optimal because you think it's cool.
This only reinforces my point about the sheer, unbridled rage this subject triggers in a certain stripe of car people, and it's both hilarious and kinda terrifying.
The only rage here is you against literally anything that has an open bed, even if it is the same size and gets the same mileage as a compact car.
I swear to you, if I ever have any kind of emotion towards "anything that has an open bed" beyond mild bemusement I will quit the Internet, abandon the concept of self-propelled vehicles and ride a donkey to a mountain monastery to rethink my life.
I just didn't know you could get people on the Internet to froth at the mouth by implying that pickup trucks aren't perhaps the most efficient mode of transportation until a couple of weeks ago. Now that I do know it feels irresponsible not to use this power. Especially when somebody brings up how culturally strange some purchasing choices are in the US.
Thank you for finally admitting that you are a troll!
Imagine being such a worthless piece of shit that you argue with someone who wants a truck version of a car by constantly saying they want something other than they are literally saying. It probably helps if you are jobless and unable to make romantic connections with people because of your inability to maintain proper hygiene. That must really help with the personal need to rile up others so you can feel better about yourself while you cry yourself to sleep on the bare mattress you sleep on.
Oh, yeah, this conversation is super irrelevant. There is literally zero reason to have this conversation beyond the morbid fascination of seeing weirdos come out of the woodwork to be super offended that you said mean things about open beds. It's like flipping over a rock to see the bugs.
I mean, let's be honest, why else would anybody have an intricate, incensed conversation about whether the back of a van is covered with a bit of sheet metal or going commando? It's absolutely bonkers. Think about it. Think about it hard for a second.
Why would anyone shit on the idea of a car that is the same size, gets the same mileage, and is otherwise the same as a hatchback but with an open bed instead of a closed hatch? What kind of nut job would suggest a van and a second vehicle that would get the same fuel consumption as a solution? Think about it hard for a second.
Yeeeeah, you didn't quite get the thinking part done right, I think.
But also. My friend. Back seats. We've talked about this.
I don't need a backseat in this vehicle.
Cool.
So why are we having this conversation, then? Because that's great for you, but as a "optimal use case" as opposed to the "maximal use case", I'd say "seats" tends to rank pretty high the list of car features. For... you know, most people.
You would say that since you keep ignoring everything that I have written.
Would you tell someone who wants a SmartCar that they should get something with a backseat instead? What about the van with a sealed off cabin that was suggested, which would also have two seats but worse fuel economy in a larger package than what I want which is a car with a truck bed?
Honestly this keeps going because I am fascinated by how hard you have dug your heels in opposing a car with a truck bed for reasons that I have already explained are not relevant based on my prior ownership of a hatchback. And you will respond to this because you can't just admit maybe you were wrong in your assumptions. Like comically wrong, but it would be a travesty for someone to not fit your idea of an American who uses their lifted truck as a dick substitute.
Plus I have some time on my hands so will definitely be getting the last word in.
I'm amazed they haven't accused you have having a small penis because you want a (checks again to be sure) Subaru Brat.
We had a used Brat when I was a teenager in the 80s! The seats in the bed had already been taken out and it was a rust bucket, but just fun on a bun until my older brother rolled it in a ditch.
A modern version with an electric drive train would be fantastic!
Hold up here. Americans have too many cars per capita as it is. Your solution is to increase that? Especially when cars come with a big environmental footprint right out of the factory. Because I'm over here trying to consolidate how many cars we have and use an e-bike more often.
I don't think you've thought this through.
Well, see, the secret is you probably don't really need that truck bed in the first place, so if I was to guess, I'd say that's why there's a bit of resistance to that idea. The working hypothesis here is that if you bought a sensible car that makes sense as a car... and a separate van to work, then you'd never buy a van. Which is what most people do here, honestly. You don't so much buy a van as you know a guy who does own a van and will let you use it for the thirty minutes that you actually need it once or twice a year in exchange for a beer later.
Which is probably how you end up with fewer cars per capita than the US and still have work vehicles separate from whatever you use to take the kids to school or go get groceries.
Also, you send the kids to school in a bus and walk to the shop. That also helps, I bet.
If by "American" you mean North American, then yeah, you are correct, because pickups are also super popular in Canada and Mexico. But I don't think that's what you mean. I think you mean to specify the US which again, is incorrect. The fact that pickups are so popular in Canada and Mexico as well tells us that contrary to what I suspect you're trying to imply, there isn't some kind of special innate idiotic pickup truck gene that's unique to Americans and that instead, it's all about marketing.
After all, if marketing and advertising didn't work, it wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar industry. What the big American car companies have done with amazing effectiveness is to make owning a pickup truck an intimate part of a lot of people's self-image. That's what you are arguing against and that's why it's nearly impossible to change anyone's mind about it.
That's all fair enough. And let me just include the first part about North America in there and not also pick the fight about Canada being mostly in that same cultural bundle because this thread is already trolly and angry enough.
I think if this thread wasn't such a hassle it'd be interesting to pick some of that apart, because I do think the marketing is culturally bound, not arbitrary (if it was arbitrary it would have worked in the places where it didn't). I do think it's obviously hard to argue about the identitarian bit you mention, though, because... well, look around this thread.
What about a small car trailer?
How is an extra piece of equipment that is less convenient and takes up more space a better solution? Where the fuck am I going to keep that when I could just have that same space in the back of a vehicle instead of an enclosed trunk?
Either truck means something different in your language where you cannot conceive of one being small, or you are somehow opposed to a vehicle with an open bed existing at all.
Please keep offering less convenient solutions than having an open bed in the back of a car sized vehicle though, it is entertaining how fucking ridiculous the suggestions are instead of just agreeing that a smaller trucks would be a nice alternative.
The base answer to your problem is owning a **small and light trailer. One that is capable of hauling a few boards or an appliance or two like a clothes washer or refrigerator. And when done with the task, can be parked in a corner and forgotten until needed again. A perfectly good one can be had for around $500US - Some simple assembly required.
**Apartment dwellers might not be able to own one.
That can work also. As long as there is a U-Haul to rent from and they have what you need when you need it. And it WILL cost more than $20 - been there done that.