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this post was submitted on 18 Jan 2024
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If you want leftists to vote for dems, despite dems pissing on leftists at every possible chance and yelling at leftists to fall in line, I'll show you how.
Point out that voting will never, ever, ever move the democrat party to the left. You cannot vote the party harder to the left.
Point out that Republicans are going to remain fascists.
Point out that voting third party is a spoiler vote and will result in fascists winning.
Point out that the actual way to move to the left is to unionize and organize at the grassroots level, to apply bottom-up pressure on the top.
The answer is not to pretend that Biden is anything other than a Neoliberal Capitalist. Leftists will correctly point out that Biden is still a lukewarm neoliberal maintaining the status quo, and feel further alienated by being told they should love him anyways. That just encourages voter apathy.
Voting will move the party left, if people vote for that. But they don't because leftists are a tiny, fringe political minority. That's why Biden is in office and not Bernie.
Can't wait to prove you wrong at the democratic primary oh wait shit we're not really doing one of those for some reason
LOL. we already had one. Bernie lost... twice I might add. I hope another person like Bernie runs after Biden's, or Trump's :(, 2nd term because even Bernie himself helped talk about things Democrats didn't talk about (healthcare for all for instance).
You are missing the entire point..
You're doing exactly what you accuse the other side of doing while accepting the 1%'s bullshit argument that there is literally no hope of actual change.
Next 4 years, Next 4 years, Next 4 years, almost there guys don't worry about it.
Picking the better of 2 evils is not democracy.
From your(and my) perspective it's the better of two evils, there are plenty of average democrats that chose Biden on the merits.
I've literally never met anyone in real life who actually supports Biden, I'm not saying they don't exist, just that he doesn't exactly get people excited to vote, it's literally just "not Trump"
Bernie ~~lost~~ won then got told to eat a dick, and then his voters were told to eat a dick in court.
Then democrats blamed those voters for not voting dem after telling them all to fuck the fuck off.
What do you think would happen that would prove me wrong? A democratic primary is a great way to increase the chances of a Republican victory.
Running Biden is a great way to have a trump victory
Voting will not move the party left. The only reason the dems are in power at all, is because the vast amounts of wealth of Capitalists support them. There's no bottom-up pressure. Even if Bernie was in office, he'd have to fight tooth and nail with the democrats to get things done, not just the Republicans.
This attitude right here?
Exactly why the orange won.
The MIC picks, not us.
END THE MIC
I have been to every size of town and city all over the US and it doesn't appear leftists a fringe minority. The people that accurately labels themselves as a leftist is probably a minority, but many many people are adherents of left wing views, but with no accessible way to push or vote for their ideals. People will support socialist policies without realizing as well, like guaranteeing healthcare or housing for all. People's ideas of politics are all over the place in the US.
Im not American but thinking about getting my citizenship before 2032ish (so out of this voting cycle and maybe the next) actually, the more I hear about voting for a third party is a waste, the more tempting it is. Not saying that because I'm trying to be an edge lord, or a trump supporter, or whatever else I'm sure someone will accuse me of - but because if your policy dept is so out of ideas that all you have is "vote for us or else... ...you... will have voted for someone else. And they might be bad. Neener neener" then surely anything except the Biden/Trump dichotomy has got to be worth a try?
Then to top it all that my vote won't make a difference, to either party, it's just pro forma so we can flip between blue Reagan and red Reagan every 8 years like normal... like - how is that not an invitation to want to fuck the system and look at third parties?
If there was no point in voting for a third party because the I didn't have to hold my nose because Democrats smelled good then you'd have no argument from me.
Voting for third party presently is voting for a spearhead with no spear. There's no mass movement for it, thus no pressure to actually stand up to the massive DNC or GOP. That's why leftists need to touch grass and organize, so that third party can be viable.
Getting the order wrong means more GOP fascism in office, getting the order right means an actual third party becomes viable.
The only way to move the party to the left is to get more involved. Whining that they aren't reaching out won't achieve anything. A party is made up of people. Want the party to move more left and reach out further left? Be one of those people in the party and do it yourself, don't expect others to do it for you.
No, a party is an interest group. Both major US parties act in the interest of the bourgeoisie and the US voting system is designed to make it hard to contend that. Until you guys discover representational voting on a national level, the democracy will falter.
Yep. And work outside of it.
But mostly be involved and become a leader in your community. Find ways to engage with people, identify their needs, and address them.
People love making this argument until you actually show up and get bullied for not showing up sooner then bullied for having different priorities than the herd then bullied for not supporting the milquetoast candidate at the moment.
Dems are just as faschie, even at the local level. You can't move people left who are just as religious about their mid right position as christofascists are theirs.
So sad to see Lemmy is downvoting something like this. Really shows how clueless even the most politically opinionated are.
For such a politically active platform, people here don't seem to really understand how people work in politics. It's not as simple as "come up with the right policy and people will vote for it". The vast majority of voters are not paying that much attention and are easily misled. A good example is California. One of the most liberal states, and they have a direct democracy system for amending the state constitution. Should be a slam dunk for leftist right? Nope, couldn't be farther from the truth. Corporations pull every dirty trick in the book and spend billions of dollars spreading misinformation and pulling every legal trick in the book to get their will through, and as a result voters, not representatives, but voters, vote for props that go directly against their interests because they've been lied to and fell for it. Every election year there's a bunch of horrible things on the ballot and it's a nail biter seeing if the voters fell for it. Getting the right things passed, and also getting voters to actually go for it is nowhere as simple as people here act like it is, and people here don't even provide any solutions, they just want to meme and complain while sitting on their asses instead of getting engaged and getting others engaged.
The wealthy DNC donors pick and choose who makes up the party at the federal level. You may get an upset local win against a Neoliberal dem, but the party is the way it is by design.
Leftists won’t vote for dems. Your point is invalid.
I'm voting for him as an avowed leftist.
Besides impeding fascism, his reforms on student loans mean I'll be debt-free with $0 payments in 10 years. That is a material improvement of my life that I am infinitely grateful for.
But I still think he's a piece of shit for aiding and abetting a genocide and would vote for another candidate if I meaningfully could.
Politics is nuanced. 🤷
I have similar feelings. My student loans will be way easier to pay off with the new SAVE repayment plan and the IRA should help cover some well needed window replacements, and the very well needed furnace and air conditioner replacement. At a larger scale some of the bills he passed are greatly expanding rail and renewable energy both of which I greatly love to see. There's a couple of new rail corridorsthat will connect me to friends and make it possible to go to places I want to go to by rail instead of driving so I'm very excited to have those options opening up in 10-15 years
I didn't get the free universal 3k schooling for my kids, nor the permanent expanded child tax credit. I didn't get my student loan forgiveness (which at least was down to republican fuckery since the law was pretty clear in allowing it) and our tax dollars are going to a yet another oppressive regime in the middle east with the bonus of killing of thousands of kids
Ultimately I'm not thrilled but it's far more than I got under a Republican government and it's far more than I actually expected under Biden
If a particular leftist isn't rational enough to recognize the important of impeding the progress of fascism, at any level possible, its a vote that can probably be missed.
If you have the power to impeded fascism in any way, and you choose not to do so, I'm don't believe you are a leftist.
In 2016, Bernie was shafted in the primary to protect capitalistic interests. When challenged in court, the DNC won under the premise that they are a private organization that can do what they want and votes don't mean shit.
In 2024, we're watching Biden sidestep Congress to fund genocide in Palestine.
Democrats are fascists, putting a pride pin in their cap doesn't change that.
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Fascism is not just people supporting things you don't like.
Certainly mid right
Try being left of Biden in a room full of Democrats.
See above, Dems are resistant to any meaningful change because they believe USA #1. They wave their little equality flag but suggest overhauling a US system and see how quick they become conservative.
Even after a Trump presidency, we can't reign in executive privilege because Dems are just as reliant on it. See: Biden sidestepping Congress to fund Israel, also.....gestures broadly at America for militarism
3rd parties have met requirements to be included on ballots and in debates before, dems were just as quick as Repubs to move those goalposts everytime they're met. Also, 2016 - Bernie won the primary, no he didn't shut up also we'll go to court to show our voters they don't mean shit
I mean, that's just capitalism and Dems are all in on defending that at all costs (See above)
Go to any thread discussing politics or Democratic function IRL and mention any political/social interest other than "Not Trump" or whatever the DNC flavor of the day is and watch how quickly you get told you're a stupid baby. (Case in point, your reply - "You don't have real concerns you just think fascism is anything you don't like nyahhh")
Again, capitalism, but politically - Any primary winner would have been rejected for Hillary in 2016 because they just owed her one, and here we are doubling down on Biden for a second term at 81 after 50 years in politics instead of, well, anybody else at all no matter how many people tell them how weak that play is.
Democracy is not shutting out any people supporting things you don’t like.
Thanks for illustrating my point.
Give me a leftist anti-fascist candidate and I'll vote for him. shrug "Leftists don't want to vote for fascists OR fascists waving a pride flag so they don't" isn't the hot take you think it is. Every year, democrats lose voters because they refuse to go any further left than mid-right to placate the donor class and every year y'all go on these tirades about how y'all don't need leftists anyway (as you simultaneously) blame us for Republican wins, usually in the same post.)
If leftist votes are so critical it'd probably be a good idea to stop actively pissing on them, huh?
I'm sorry, how is this different from a Trump speech, exactly? Dehumanization, outright falsehoods, false generalizations, personal insults, de-legitimization, etc.
Democrats are fascist, and the US isn't a democracy. It's a right wing Corporatocracy and we're in such late stage capitalism everyone's taken their hoods off and saying the quiet part out loud.
See ya after the downfall, bruddaman
Cool beans. Don’t cry when you’re blamed again like you were in 2016.
You can blame me all you want, but how voting works is you give people a suitable candidate to vote for and people vote for them because they're a strong candidate supporting people's needs and desires - not because you bully them.
The options are mid right, far right, or 3rd parties who get the goalposts moved everytime they meet requirements to participate in debates and ballots. I lose either way. YOU will lose because you ran a shit neolib and told everybody that thought that was a bad idea to fuck right off cause you don't need em anyway. Enjoy your shocked pikachu face when the people you told not to vote with you don't vote with you.
I agree. Its incredibly tough and an almost impossible task.
We have the choice of diet fascism, or the full blown thing.
We can buy some time if we stick with diet fascism. The only real solution is to get involved in the political process and try and change things. I think we're in a highly 'activated' community, so I'm sure, along with others, I'm not the only politically involved person here. I think beyond physical training, doing your best to set yourself up to be independent from the requirements of the social system, and engaging in the political process, there isn't much more I would promote doing. But those are also all very important things, especially becoming involved in the political process.
You can run as an independent. Find a rural district. Become the dog catcher (or hell, become the sheriff).
But they will still call themselves leftists, which muddies the water and makes it impossible to actually tell.
voting for fascist Democrats doesn't impede fascism. implying that voting for evil people is rational, and therefore refusing to vote for evil people is irrational, is pure ad hominem.
I'm a leftist and I vote for dems, at least at the federal level or if a republican actually stands a chance of winning, and it isn't a leftist vs an incumbent dem.
Your point is invalid.
Source? You fade
You're wrong of course.
Or gatekeeping, which would be pathetic.
You can also lobby your local government. Look them up, book a 30 minute appointment, dress the part show up and make your pitch. Sure it will barely bump the needle but if normies start doing this it can start to nudge that needle a little
Even just calling your local politicians can nudge that needle.
Sooo many people think electoralism is is just casting your vote every 4 years when it's necessary to vote twice a year and stay in contact with your politicians.
I started going to school board meetings recently and have had a few people shocked at me just being a dude with a young child in, the district showing up to see how things run, sure it's boring as hell but I had established a report with one of the members(long story) so him seeing me at the meeting was encouraging to him.