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this post was submitted on 10 Dec 2023
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It's the political reality that you need the votes of people to your left who you hate. Get to it.
I'm already voting for Biden. You'll scream at me anyway because you don't want to treat voters you need as though you need their votes.
I don't hate them. I said certain ones are naive (aggravatingly so, to clarify further). Too many people talk and act as if they can choose this time and keep that ability to choose next time.
If you have the sense to see what you stand to lose in this dumb FPTP system, then we are in the same boat. I understand the desire to have your elected leaders actually do something progressive, or doing something that makes you truly proud of them.
But as someone said, voting is a chess move, not a love letter.
in the time that I've been voting... the US has only slid right. The democrats have done exceedingly little to halt that.
Rear guard delaying actions, to use the military parlance, do not win wars. Biden is moderate only in consideration that the GOP are so much further to the right as to actively embrace fascism. We cannot keep acting as we always have and expect something to magically fix itself. So now is the time to start changing how we vote and the people we send to be voted for.
it's really that simple.
It's not. We are four years too late. We need to prevent a fascist takeover, then try to make progress.
That is what they said last time, too. Complete with a promise of “one term”
Why should anyone believe you (and Biden) this time?
What alternative do you have? What viable plan can you enact to change the likely outcome and still avoid fascism?
"you'll vote for who we tell you, and you'll like it. By the way. You can either choose [objectively bad] or [worse] candidates. HOW DARE YOU ask for better."
that all you're saying. You're arguments are unconvincing... and not even addressing the point: with BIDEN/the 'moderate' democrats... we're still sliding into fascism. Just not as fast as we would with Trump. So. are you really concerned about fascism... or do you just want it on your terms?
Ask all you want. Wish for them, even. But that's not an actionable plan, and that's the problem. That's why I point out that progressive ideologues are naive.
Who do you suggest we all vote for, and how do you plan to convince the "herd of cats" that is the political left?
Getting kind of tired of answering this.
Bernie. AoC. Even Phillips would be better.
Sorting it out would be a lot easier if the “herd of cats” as you called us got a legitimate say in, I don’t know, not-actually-rigged primaries.
That would be lovely. But that's still wishful thinking, not an actual plan, and that's the problem. The reality is the primaries are "rigged" by a fuck-ton of money, which you nodded to in your own assessment. We can't have nice things as long as money decides most elections.
But there's also, in my opinion, the greater problem of the tribal right. They can literally invent their own reality, stoke the various "Panics," and lose none of their voters. They will vote as reliable bloc with the unified purpose of defeating their invisible and insidious enemies, be they imagined demons, "woke Leftists," or some other invented monsters.
I call the Left "a herd of cats," because we generally have no unified purpose. People, rightly, ask their leaders, "What have you done for me lately," but that is a privilege we no longer have when right wing Fascism is a year away.
I want good leaders, too, but I want to survive to make them happen, and a year is simply not long enough to build the money and momentum needed in this FPTP system.
Still, I hope you and everyone vote for their favorite person in the primaries, and maybe we'll get that miracle candidate by pure luck.
That's exactly the point I'm getting tired of making. the DNC has been "surviving to make it happen" for longer than I've been a voter. The only presidential candidate that really generated excitement was Obama. even then, that turned out to be surprisingly hollow. Obamacare turned out to be lackluster, even before the GOP got their hands on it and ripped out a lot of it horse trading.
every other finalized candidate has been insanely disappointing. the only time any of them even bother to acknowledge that millennials and gen z even exist is when some staffer points out 'gee your polling really sucks. they don't like you'. then they run something out about something they think we still care about (how much you wanna bet the next one is reducing import costs on avacado toast?) I.E. Biden's silence on abortion. (he's personally apposed to unrestricted access but keeps his mouth shut because he ain't dumb.) (did he even actually try to codify RvW?) or the student loan debt (which so far, isn't so much anything new, but rather, honoring agreements that were- fraudulently- ignored?) (the, uh, student loan debt that took a gone-viral report on that bullshit to get his administration to even look at.)
at a certain point, you have to stop treading water waiting for the ship to come back and start swimming to the island. the ship ain't coming back.
thank you
I don't know about that, I've been paying attention since 2004ish and I don't remember Romney being portrayed as a destroyer of democracy, his big thing was "binders of women" and tying his dog to the roof of his car... Lol Same with McCain, our biggest issue with McCain was Palin and the absolute joke of a person she is with all the newspapers she definitely totally reads.
Technically, Romney was before I was legally allowed to vote. Just saying.
McCain… the rhetoric was there if it was less “end of democracy” and more … a different kind of end to democracy? I dunno. They’ve been using scare tactics to insist we need to vote for their still-pretty-bad candidate.
(Except Obama, I didn’t think I’d like him… but he was okay.)
They can't do anything as the minority, and as the majority they need 60 Senate votes to do anything more meaningful than budget reconciliation. Our country is designed to make change difficult, as the Senate filibuster proves. We would need 50 Senate votes to change that, and Democrats fell barely short in 2020. The most change they've been able to do is with Obamacare when they had a 60 seat majority for 2 months. Those 2 months are the only time in recent history Democrats have had a commanding majority, but even then they were still beholden to centrists like Lieberman to maintain the 60 count.
There's a vicious cycle in American politics. Democrats will win the majority when Republicans massively fuck up. They'll pass legislation that can't be more progressive unless we have more senators. Voters will be unhappy the legislation isn't better, staying home and leading Republicans to win. Republicans see their extremism as vindicated and are emboldened. We've seen this happen twice already. First with the Tea Party in 2010, second with Trumpism in 2016. When Republicans win, they drive us right.
Both parties are shaped more by their wins than their losses. Romney in '12 and Trump in '16 show this really well. If we want to push the party and the country to left, we have no choice but to continue voting.
This is such a bullshit take it kind of pisses me off. Let me explain.
First, the only reason democrats have as much trouble in federal elections is all the freaking time is because they do Jack shit to support local campaigns. Which, leads to republicans gerrymandering the fuck out of districts.
Also, leads to a dire lack of new and up-coming canidates to source from… leading to the same lackluster “always been around” canidates that are unappealing.
But democrats, as a voting block, are not actually minorities. But they struggle getting the vote out precisely because a) there’s little support for local campaigns and b) the federal canidates are… rather underwhelming.
There’s exceptions who’ve managed to get there in spite of the DNC/national leadership.
But they’d never get the presidential nomination because actual progressives scare the fuck out of their corpo overlords.
Be fair. They support centrists when they have progressive primary challengers.
you're right. And of course the centrist looses because "I'm not that or that" is a really bad platform to be on.
I appreciate your response nonetheless and that you were civil towards me even if you disliked my opinion. Genuinely, thank you for that.
I do think you touch on some good points about local candidates and support. I think things are better now, but I do distinctly recall that it was lacking for a good part of 2008 - Present.
When it comes to federal candidates, I honestly think it's a mix -- yes, the candidates could stand to be better and a lot more appealing. I don't think it's a mistake that the more charismatic and friendly Democrat candidates have done well. I think too though that voter responsibility is a consideration. Even if the candidates are less than stellar, it's important to go vote, because the less stellar Democrat is still better than the best Republican. I think the best way to look at it is that both ends need to be responsible -- there need to be candidates that are genuine and spirited in some regard. And blue voters need to vote for them even if there's room for improvement.
There's never going to be a perfect candidate -- but that doesn't mean we can't have a good candidate. I didn't quite appreciate that second part until what you said. I don't think it changes my view about voting for Biden, but it does help me understand the consternation about it more. I can see what you mean by being tired of all the voting, just for things to be where they are. It can be a two pronged effort to both inspire voters with a good candidate and encourage voters to show up. I think the idea of a shared responsibility makes the whole nomination process and campaigning feel more like a partnership with the voter, which it should feel like.
I don't know about a progressive candidate never getting the nomination either -- I don't think any barriers they could put up would stop a really good candidate. Their strength is overstated, I think. Maybe I'm just refusing to accept a pessimistic reality, but if we don't fight like we have a chance, we aren't going to have a chance. Corpo overlords are only invulnerable if we think they are.
This is a tangent, but I saw it happen before, when I worked for a petrochemical company. Consumer goods manufacturers were pledging to stop using single use plastics because customers were demanding them to be more sustainable. It would've been devastating to my company's revenue if that happened, so corporate started looking at how to reliably recycle plastics and reuse them all the way on the chemical feedstock level. Collective bargaining is incredibly powerful.
I hope everyone actually moves away from single use plastics. Instead of making pledges they have no intention of honoring and "looking into" things they'll never actually do.
My understanding is that the work is being seriously pursued -- as in actual dollars have been spent and there's equipment currently proving out the tech. It's a far cry from all the other greenwashing the company does and did. There's enough going on that I think it's legit, especially since this was an industry wide effort.
To clarify, their plan is to turn "single use plastics" into just "plastics" by chemically reprocessing the waste from single use plastics. You wouldn't be melting the plastic and then reblowing it - you'd be melting it and reacting it several times first.
I don't expect you to believe me a priori, I would certainly have my doubts if I hadn't been in the department. I hope it pans out because it wouldn't just cut down on plastic waste. There would be value in collecting the waste all over the oceans, and if there's one thing you can rely on, it'll be some venture capitalist starting a company to harvest all of that.
Until there's results, there's no reason to believe anything they say. It's just vapor to stop companies from abandoning single use plastics.
That's fair. There's always a chance they kill it within the next few years too.
And won't do what they campaigned on as the majority.
Democrats will always fall barely short. They will always stand in their own way. There are always enough manchins.
So goes the excuse, yes. No matter how great the majority, centrists always find enough no votes.
Don't lie to me. I know how you've responded to me in the past when I didn't include that I was voting for Biden in my comment.
I very much doubt that.
And the move expected of the progressives you hate is always "forfeit."
You said it. Not me. Lol
I know what centrists expect from progressives.
Are the centrists here in the room, now?
I'm talking to one, ain't I?
And you need the votes of people to your right who you hate. That's the political reality of it. It's a two way street, and both progressives and moderates see it as a one way.
I get to see that a lot because I have the same goals and desires of progressives (which is why I consider myself one), but I think we should achieve them with plans grounded in reality that are based on systems and practices we already know work. That aligns more with how the moderates do things. In short, I just want to reach the outcome in the best way possible, without any unpleasant surprises.
I expect something snarky in response to that, but I hope I'm wrong. Because as much as you may dislike me I'm the vote, directly to your right, that you need. Do you believe your words to apply fairly to everyone, or just the groups you dislike?
Edit: And just to be clear, I really see no reason for us to be adversarial. I want the same goals as you at the end of the day, and given you're voting for Biden, I think our thoughts on the methods aren't all that different either.
The party has you covered. They have spent the past half a century moving to the right to appeal to the centrists and try, Chamberlain-like, to appease Republicans. If the party ever does something that its pampered right flank dislikes in the slightest, then I'll start talking about how we need to keep their votes.
The last time that happened was when the voters overcame the party's attempt to coronate Clinton and nominated Obama instead. The Clinton wing of the party formed a PAC to try to elect McCain and Palin. Obama, always eager to capitulate to his right, actually tried to get their votes back by selecting a moderate as his VP pick. Clinton selected the anti-choice Tim Kaine as her VP pick as a "fuck you, you'll vote for me cause you gotta" to the left. Biden chose the war on drugs DA as his VP.
The party does what you want already. You have a party that represents you. The left has a party that opposes them and orders them to vote for them anyway.
I already told you, I sit between progressives and moderates because I have the same goals as progressives and the same methods as moderates (or at least what would be considered a slower and measured process).
You've also avoided my question, I'm not talking about who the party appeals to here. There's already plenty of discussion about what moderates do. I want to know what you think about how progressives should build coalitions. Believe it or not, I want to see progressives win. I'm asking how they should appeal to moderates and earn their votes for a general election once they win a primary -- without completely capitulating to the center.
Progressives and Democrat moderates/establishment need each other to win elections, and as you've aptly pointed out, they don't value that. There's going to come a time in the next few decades where the dynamics flip though, and progressives have more power. How should we act differently then -- if at all? It's perfectly valid to say they can reap what they sow and also be taken for granted. I just think there's a real opportunity in cooperation instead to have a strong electoral alliance.
If it isn't clear, I have no desire to be adversarial with you, just genuine discussion. I don't agree with everything you say necessarily, but there's enough I agree with on some level that my being a dick is getting in the way of learning your perspective. And along those lines -- sorry that I've been a dick to you, especially with how I ignored you saying you'll vote for Biden just so I could make witty arguments and quips. That was disrespectful and also utterly counterproductive.
You know, that makes you a conservative right? Slowing progress and social change is the heart of conservatism. (In reality republican “conservatives” are in fact regressive- which is why they got rid of RvW, want to get rid of Obama care, and deregulate every regulation curtailing corporates.)
Just something for you to think about.
I should probably clarify what I mean. Healthcare for example -- I have no qualms about instantly moving to a Medicare for All system, or establishing a copy of say the UK or German system.
My caution would be on what comes after that. Currently pretty much every universal healthcare system has a form of supplemental private insurance for those who want it. I wouldn't immediately support abolishing all insurance, because that's untread ground. I would however immediately support commissioning studies to figure out what it would look like and if there's any unexpected issues that come up. Alternatively, if someone else tests it and things look good, then let's immediately jump to abolishing insurance.
For a lot of American issues actually there wouldn't be much difference. We have plenty to catch up on. We could adopt European systems without any concern.
I think my mentality probably applies more with climate change, where I don't want the government to start building large scale fusion reactors when we really haven't proved out the technology. Or, deploying a chemical additive in the atmosphere to absorb CO2, without extensive studies on the after effects. I don't want us to create an even bigger problem with the solution.
EDIT: And to be clear, when I say we shouldn't immediately ban all private insurance, that's not out of love for those companies. It's to figure out how we smoothly transition everyone currently working in that industry to a new job. I don't want a situation where all of those workers suddenly become unemployed or are thrown to the wolves.
I appreciate the clarification there. thank you.
Just a minor point, I don't think any progressives are actually pushing for fusion (it's only barely gotten past break-even in billions of dollars worth of global investment.) if we wanted to talk about fission... there's some new technologies there that don't have all of the draw backs of classic fusion; and their modularity could be a reasonable solution for places that wind or solar aren't. (they're being developed, for example, to power giant container ships).
same goes with any form of carbon capture. The feeling I have (and seems to be echoed by most) is that carbon capture is great and all, but it's basically an excuse for companies to just not change what they're doing; and it's siphoning funds from actual solutions. I would like to see some carbon capture happen, but not at the expense of actually solving the problem.
Oh modular reactors are a really good technology that we really need to deploy. SMRs are designed to be inherently safe too iirc. Nuclear and hydrogen also go together really, really well. And I completely agree on carbon capture. Actually removing it from the atmosphere is where I'd be very cautious, but it would be the most impactful carbon you could capture.
Also I was just using fusion as a quick example, I'm not sure I've heard anyone in the political sphere talk about it yet. The example I actually had in mind was healthcare and M4A, because I thought at first M4A was going to instantly abolish all insurance. I think I remember reading though that it still keeps supplemental private insurance like everywhere else, which is exactly where we need to start.
Honestly that's the only example I can really think of where I've been more cautious, and I'm mistaken there too. I might not be as different as I think.
The latter is designed to make sure the former never happens.
If Democrats do not alter course, they will alienate enough of the votes that they needed and Republicans will win before that happens. Maybe not this election, maybe not the next one. But our current messaging won't succeed forever, and it won't carry us to the future in which progressives have any power. And we know what Republicans' plans are. There won't be meaningful elections after that.
There won't be a then if the party maintains its current heading
It certainly is. They should sow other crops.
That opportunity exists today, and I fear it will not exist in the future. Centrists refuse to seize it, and progressives are not in a position to. If you want magnanimity, lead by example. Like this:
This shows a capacity for introspection and humility that centrists are often too proud or antagonistic to display. Apology accepted.
And we’re the problem for warning them about that. It’s hilarious. It’s only working because of how horrible trump is. If the pubies trotted any one less horrible, we’d loose.
They'd rather have Trump than appeal to the left.
If Republicans nominate someone other than Trump, he'll run as a third party candidate and split the "stupid bigot" vote. It's the best we could hope for, considering that Democrats' only message right now is "fuck you, you're voting for us." Any Democrat who doesn't have a compelling reason to vote in the Democratic Party primaries for lower offices than president should be voting in the Republican presidential primaries.
fair point. hypothetically, if trump didn't exist (lets say he's directly convicted of insurrection, or his second impeachment had seen him convicted; and directly barred from office ever again) Biden would loose to any other candidate
Yeah, probably.
I fear we haven't definitively avoided the point where infighting between Democrats and progressives makes us blind to a fascist threat. So it's more than fair for me to do my part when I've been a dick and perpetuated the problem.
My hope is that Republicans lose by so much in 2024 that it effectively destroys the party, and by the time we're sure they're gone, the Democrats can split into proper moderate and progressive parties. It's definitely wishful thinking, but we live in unusual times. Democrats should've lost badly in the midterms, but they actually came out ahead in the Senate and won some important state races.
It's also worth noting that we will need methodical planning grounded in reality and science to achieve the goals we want. We just need to do it genuinely and not to stifle progress. We can do what's already worked for other countries fairly instantly, but we should exercise caution in making further improvements. We can still put together a test plan however to confirm any additional improvements will be successful.
I have no faith that stifling progress isn't the party's only goal.
Let the party do what it wants. This sort of planning needs to done by progressives in any case.
No matter how thoroughly progressives prepare, it will be summarily dismissed as inadequate by the "baby steps to nowhere" crowd.