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this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2023
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Jewish people are attacked on the streets, synagogues are being attacked and smeared with swastikas etc.
You can condemn that and still think Israel is making a mistake in Gaza.
This is absolutely true. Antisemitism is on the rise in many places. At the same time some organizations (like the ADL) mark everything anti zionist as antisemitist. This muddies the water and takes away from the actual stuff some people have to go through with antisemitism. Their stories deserve to be heard and not getting drowned out by claims that have nothing to do with antisemitism.
I don’t think the OP you’re replying to means to say that antisemitism isn’t on the rise, it’s just hard to know how much is actual antisemitism and how much is marked as antisemitism when it’s just criticism of Zionism and/or the state of Israel.
how do u differentiate antizionism and antisemitism? jews have the right to live buuuut.... not in Israel? please enlighten me
Zionism isnt "jews have the right to live". Its "jews have a divine right to land where people were already living so they kill and exile them"
The "kill and exile" part is not necessarily part of it (see e.g. Labour Zionism, Rabin was one of them) but granted the right-wing nutjobs have pretty much appropriated that label outside of Israel itself.
Oh speaking about divine right: There's also religious Antizionism, those people equate anything Zionist to trying to force the prophecy of the third temple and therefore as heretical.
oh I've seen a lot about labor zionism learning about the history of zionism in general. The kibbutzim, the jewish land funds, the buying up of land from colonial land owners and eviction of Palestinians, long before Israeli statehood. Look at the occupation in the West Bank for what Labor Zionism looks like. And what the kibbutzim at the Gaza border are waiting to do to Gaza.
Going in and helping in all kinds of humanitarian ways? At least that's what they did before Hamas slaughtered them all, it's a very lefty region.
Imagine Rabin not getting assassinated and the Oslo accords going into force. That's what Labor Zionism could've looked like.
And don't get me wrong I won't defend everything every Labour Zionist has ever done, either. My position is actually quite simple: Fascists on both sides are fucking it up for everyone. And no matter your gripes with any particular Labour Zionist thing, fascists they are fucking not.
do you think the humanitarian situation in Gaza was good? International Humanitarian organizations were pleading with Israel to let them do humanitarian work in the open air prison that is Gaza. I think Israel has been lying to you about how they've been handling Gaza, it has not been humanitarian in any way.
The situation wasn't just not good, it was atrocious. But also no, the Israelis going in and and helping weren't the Israeli government blockading it, same as Israelis helping West Bank Palestenians with the olive harvest so they don't get shot at by settlers aren't the IDF turning a blind eye to settlers shooting Palestinians.
Maybe, just for a second, consider that Israel is not a hive mind.
Considering the "settler" violence in the West Bank (backed by the Israeli military), it sure seems like they've appropriated it inside of Israel itself, too.
They've cornered state power by having found a willing stirrup holder (Netanyahu) whose only interest nowadays is staying in power to avoid going to prison for corruption and therefore able to form a coalition with the right-wingest of right-wing fascist fucks (people like Ben Gvir, who didn't get drafted as the IDF ruled him to be too extremist to serve). But label-wise, no, they don't equate Zionism with Kahanites and general ilk. Roughly like other countries don't equate patriotism with fascism.
Some Israelis - not all. The current government is absolutely zionist and there is a decent portion of the population that is aligned with that... but, to my knowledge, the majority of Israelis don't demand a one state solution. And it's absolutely true that the majority of jews don't advocate for that.
Was Rabin the one assassinated by a Zionist who was so close to making a good treaty? If so, we need more of those.
By a religious Zionist, yes. And guess who back then variously called for, didn't push back against calls for, etc, his assassination: The current prime minister as well as the minister of national security.
As to more of those: You know the type of Jews living close to the west bank going in helping Palestinians with the olive harvest so that they're less likely to get shot at by settlers (because hurting Israelis would get them in trouble)? Many of those types also lived near the Gaza border, helping as they can, it's a region full of old hippie kibbutzim. And then Hamas came. Which gives yet another spin on why the Israeli government isn't terribly worried about the hostages: Most of them are leftists.
Generally speaking the average Israeli is left of centre, in its core it's a socdem country. After the failure of the Oslo accords a lot, a lot a lot of them bought the right-wing promise for safety, the "antagonise until they give up" path, but otherwise stayed centre left. As I think the Haaretz put it: "Yigal Amir [the assassin] has won". But then with the right wing now having proved that they can't provide safety their days in government are absolutely numbered, Netanyahu is not popular in Israel right now. They won't go for naive hippie kumba-ya, either, but a Realpolitik "keep the checkpoints, get rid of the settlements, stop antagonising and put the fucking Kahanites in padded cells" policy is currently definitely a vote-winner.
They were already living there as well. You do realise that, yes?
from the beginnings of Zionism? No, no they largely came from Europe, when Britain colonized the area after World War I. It's pretty fucked up, Britain promised Arab independence in Palestine if they revolted against the Ottoman colonizers during WWI, but then issued the Balfour Declaration promising a Jewish state there instead.
That's such an incredibly reduced "summary" that you can as well call it false. But in your eyes good and evil are strictly defined. Must be nice (for you). Sadly, that's neither helpful, nor good, nor a solution.
Whats false is the idea that they were already there. Its kind of a weird thing to believe, i feel like you'd be pretty well aware of the famous Jewish diaspora. Theres a reason over 700 thousand palestinians were killed or exiled and it wasnt to make room for people already living there.
What makes it "false" is that it deliberately leaves out multiple other factors that do not fit your narrative of "Israel = evil Jewish colonizers from Europe" and "Palestinians = poor victims being oppressed".
Directly neighbouring Arab and Muslim countries and areas exiled, killed and drove out Jews amounting to more than 850 thousand who went to Israel.
That the people who we call Palestinians today in the area denied the two-state solution at that time because they did not want Israel to exist. They wanted to rather have war instead of getting their own state and share the land.
The animosity and multiple wars that were started against Israel for purely religious and ideologic reasons from the other side as well. The religious zealots aren't only on Israel's side.
There are numerous countries that came into existence by wars and in a similar way as Israel. It's even less of an issue here because it's not even a part of a country which declared independence, there wasn't even a country in the first place!
Israel did not come into existence just because of Zionism. About half of the Jews in Israel are Mizrahim who are native to the area. They had an inferior status in the Islamic society. By your own logic it is understandable that they ultimately pushed back and declared independence after being treated as second class people for generations.
Im sure there were some, but the majority of this was their own choice. It's Zionism, of course they went to the holy land when Israel was formed, that was always the plan.
They were damn right to not want it, it's gone horribly for them. Palestinians opposed Zionism from the beginning as Jews started settling and evicting them from their land.
If that gives them a right to exile Palestinians it gives hamas the right to fight back because so were Palestinians.
Than if Palestinians now want to exile Israelis that also gives them the right to fight back.
Yea, so let's not kick out anyone and learn to coexist.
I can also define words however I want and change facts to make my bias sound not crazy
feel free to bring in any definitions for zionism you can find that just call it a right to live. Heck, look up why it's called Zionism. It's about Jews establishing a nation around Jerusalem. Palestinians were and still are living there already during this movement. hundreds of thousands have been killed or exiled.
Jews are people, Israel is a colonial entity. The abolishment of Israel as a state does not mean the death of its inhabitants.
So you people actually want Israel to be gone? Where shall all the Israelis go, in your opinion? And why do the Israelis have less of a right for a country than the Palestinians?
Well first generation settlers should definitely move back to their homes, wherever they have citizenship and it's feasible (not refugees etc).
But as for the rest I never said expel everyone in Israeli occupied territory. I said abolish the state. They can still live there, but not under a genocidal ethnostate in which you have higher status for being a member of one faith.
Land will have to be redistributed, and reparations paid as well.
Who is supposed to pay those reparations if Israel doesn't exist anymore and there are no Israelis?
How are the Jews supposed to protect themselves from the people who want them out of the country or dead (which is the reason why Israel came into existence in the first place)?
What kind of state do you think Palestine would be? Or is it okay to have a Muslim ethnostate but not a Jewish one?
Never said all the people currently there had to leave
Maybe when they're not stealing Palestinian land and genociding Palestinians, there wouldn't be so much animosity.
One representative of those that live there, a mix.
You don't seem to know a lot about the area.
I am curious, how would genocide of non-muslims and LGBT individuals along with religious oppression of women be prevented in your suggested scenario where the state of Israel is abolished?
It is possibly the most diverse nation on planet Earth, and a beacon of personal liberties, stability and democracy when compared to other MENA countries (if you disagree here, please do give a counter-example!)
so threw all jews out of Israel got it.
I think they mean they just share the land with the Palestinians, the people who they threw out when they got there.
If the US can manage it with African Americans or Native Americans, or South Africa can manage it post apartheid, or the UK can manage it after the Troubles, I think it's possible. It won't be easy, but it's worth the work to stop the violence.
People are really uneducated about how Israel came into existence. This is a country from a group of people who already lived there. It wasn't external conquerers who came to the land.
It was external settlers generally, especially starting around the Law of Return being a thing. Wikipedia and other sources says about 50% come from Europe and Russia, and the other generally from the surrounding Middle Eastern countries once Israel became a thing and started calling people towards it. Even today, lots of people immigrate there from Europe or the US.
Are you talking from thousands of years ago? That's a strange justification to kick people out of their houses in the last 70 years, but I am down to read other sources if you've got them. I am admittedly still pretty new to this whole subject.
What about the approximately 20 % Palestinian Israelis? And do all of the Israelis have to disappear somehow and look for a place to live in other countries? Or only those who are first generation immigrants? Are you against immigration in general, btw?
"Kick people out of their homes", so are you talking about the illegal settlements in the Westbank now?
You could start reading about in on Wikipedia.
The ADL has been calling the demonstrations by Jewish Voice for Peace anti-Semitic. I don't doubt there's a rise of incidents, but it's always a good idea to look at who's providing the numbers and what they consider an incident.
u sound reasonable enough, may I ask what in your honest opinion Israel should do instesd in gaza?
It's really damn complicated. There is so much history to this conflict. I honestly don't know what Israel's best move would be.
I just think there has to be a way to have less civilian casualties. People are suffering greatly in Gaza and it somehow needs to stop.
On the other hand I understand that the Israeli government has to react to the Hamas attacks. Hundreds of innocents were slaughtered and Israel is surrounded by enemies. Constantly in danger. They need to make sure nobody else dares to attack.
In a perfect world they would (or rather: could) treat Gaza like the US treated Germany after WWII. But I'm afraid even with massive humanitarian and economic help there would still be terror and violence from Hamas. This conflict is too old and too dogmatic to be solved in a matter of weeks or even years.
Look around in this thread - even people who don't have any personal stakes in the conflict have such radical options about it. I can't imagine what it must feel like to be a Palestinian or Israeli who has lost family members to this.
the most honest and down to earth answer I've seen tbh.
I think most people in this and every other thread on the conflict have no stakes in it, and not enough knowledge on the issue and that's the problem having such strong opinions on it.
Considering how well the temporary ceasefire is going, extending that to permanent would be a great first step. Then maybe begin real negotiations on how to move forward without Israel continuing to control the region and deciding who deserves to live and where. Sure dealing with terrorism is complicated but realizing that you're increasing the recruitment rates with every bombing is pretty basic.
everything u said was already tried and failed.
Let's try it again because it's the right thing to do.
What is supposed to be done about the rockets shot at Israel and about the terrorist attacks?
Admonish and forgive. If you require a proportional response to every action you'll inevitably exist in a state of perpetual war.
No, I don't mean those in the past. But those happening right now.