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Im just way more skeptical everytime i see the word "antisemitic" with how much its being used for criticism of Israel or support of palestinians.
Jewish people are attacked on the streets, synagogues are being attacked and smeared with swastikas etc.
You can condemn that and still think Israel is making a mistake in Gaza.
This is absolutely true. Antisemitism is on the rise in many places. At the same time some organizations (like the ADL) mark everything anti zionist as antisemitist. This muddies the water and takes away from the actual stuff some people have to go through with antisemitism. Their stories deserve to be heard and not getting drowned out by claims that have nothing to do with antisemitism.
I don’t think the OP you’re replying to means to say that antisemitism isn’t on the rise, it’s just hard to know how much is actual antisemitism and how much is marked as antisemitism when it’s just criticism of Zionism and/or the state of Israel.
how do u differentiate antizionism and antisemitism? jews have the right to live buuuut.... not in Israel? please enlighten me
Zionism isnt "jews have the right to live". Its "jews have a divine right to land where people were already living so they kill and exile them"
The "kill and exile" part is not necessarily part of it (see e.g. Labour Zionism, Rabin was one of them) but granted the right-wing nutjobs have pretty much appropriated that label outside of Israel itself.
Oh speaking about divine right: There's also religious Antizionism, those people equate anything Zionist to trying to force the prophecy of the third temple and therefore as heretical.
oh I've seen a lot about labor zionism learning about the history of zionism in general. The kibbutzim, the jewish land funds, the buying up of land from colonial land owners and eviction of Palestinians, long before Israeli statehood. Look at the occupation in the West Bank for what Labor Zionism looks like. And what the kibbutzim at the Gaza border are waiting to do to Gaza.
And what the kibbutzim at the Gaza border are waiting to do to Gaza.
Going in and helping in all kinds of humanitarian ways? At least that's what they did before Hamas slaughtered them all, it's a very lefty region.
Look at the occupation in the West Bank for what Labor Zionism looks like.
Imagine Rabin not getting assassinated and the Oslo accords going into force. That's what Labor Zionism could've looked like.
And don't get me wrong I won't defend everything every Labour Zionist has ever done, either. My position is actually quite simple: Fascists on both sides are fucking it up for everyone. And no matter your gripes with any particular Labour Zionist thing, fascists they are fucking not.
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They were already living there as well. You do realise that, yes?
from the beginnings of Zionism? No, no they largely came from Europe, when Britain colonized the area after World War I. It's pretty fucked up, Britain promised Arab independence in Palestine if they revolted against the Ottoman colonizers during WWI, but then issued the Balfour Declaration promising a Jewish state there instead.
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If that gives them a right to exile Palestinians it gives hamas the right to fight back because so were Palestinians.
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Jews are people, Israel is a colonial entity. The abolishment of Israel as a state does not mean the death of its inhabitants.
So you people actually want Israel to be gone? Where shall all the Israelis go, in your opinion? And why do the Israelis have less of a right for a country than the Palestinians?
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I am curious, how would genocide of non-muslims and LGBT individuals along with religious oppression of women be prevented in your suggested scenario where the state of Israel is abolished?
It is possibly the most diverse nation on planet Earth, and a beacon of personal liberties, stability and democracy when compared to other MENA countries (if you disagree here, please do give a counter-example!)
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Someone firebombed a synagogue.
I'm pretty sure that's "genuine" antisemitism.
No ones saying theres no genuine antisemitism going on. Even in the 854 incidents of "offensive behavior" im sure is plenty of nazi ideology eugenics wanting jews killed. But im skeptical of the totality of this number being antisemitism.
I'm not sure how important it is that every one of these 854 incidents be slurs versus miscounted anti-Zionist remarks, violent attacks and assaults on Jews minding their own business in grocery stores is alarming and deplorable. Jews in Germany aren't, like, participating in Israeli politics. The IDF doesn't poll Jews across the globe asking who they should shoot. Jews shouldn't be concerned about hiding their Judaism to avoid being the target of hate.
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That's definitely a genuine piece of antisemitism and people doing shit like that need to be arrested pronto... but I'm still uncertain like the OP. Though maybe the uncertainty is just being jaded by American organizations like the AJC.
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Someone will say something similar any time antisemitism is discussed in any context. Whatever your intention, it has the effect of minimizing and normalizing antisemitism. The article is clear that only a fifth of incidents are even tangentially related to Israel at all. Attacking or threatening German Jews or destroying their property isn't criticism of Israel. Marking Jewish homes with a Star of David or firebombing synagogues isn't supporting Palestinians.
'Criticism of Israel' shouldn't mean giving cover to Nazis.
And whenever groups criticize israel or support palestinians someone will call it anti-semitism, minimizing and normalizing the genocide of palestinians.
whataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhatabout
You don't have to be a useful idiot for Nazis. That's what you're doing when you pop into a discussion about antisemitism to say that sometimes it's valid or maybe not happening at all. Opposition to antisemitism has absolutely nothing to say about Palestinians at all.
While I agree that’s true, it’s also the case that Israel has both conflated itself with Jewish people globally to claim criticism of itself as antisemitism, as well as committed actual atrocities against non-Israeli Jewish people as a means of propaganda to promote the idea that nowhere is safe for Jewish people except Israel. This muddies the water and makes it difficult to accurately discuss and criticize actual antisemitism, to the benefit of Israel and to the detriment of Jewish people.
Even if that's true, Jewish people are not collectively responsible for the actions of the Israeli government. In that case, you'd have an argument for not trusting the Israeli government. You can't extend that to German Jews (in this case) or groups that monitor antisemitism in Germany without it also being an implicit argument about why you can't trust Jews.
It’s more of a “boy who cried wolf” scenario. Many have become numb to accusations of antisemitism, because the term is frequently used incorrectly. Israel, along with Pro-Israel groups in Europe and the US (who may or may not themselves be Jewish) are frequently guilty of misusing the term. This article even states that 21% of counted incidents were anti-Israel, and a further 5% were anti-imperialist. Including those in the overall count is just incorrect unless they are also antisemitic in some other way, and because of that people are right to be skeptical of claims like in this headline. It’s not skepticism of Jewish people, it’s skepticism of people who seem motivated to call anti-Israeli acts antisemitic.
The solution here also isn’t to stop reporting on antisemitism. Doing so is important and should be recorded and reported correctly. The solution is that anti-Israeli acts cannot be included in those statistics, and people with a specific motivation to do so shouldn’t be the ones reporting.
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Among the 994 antisemitic incidents, there were three cases of extreme violence, 29 attacks, targeted damage to 72 properties, 32 threats, four mass mailings and 854 cases of offensive behavior.
So at least 10% of this number are actual violence.
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there is a difference between criticizing Israel and refusing to accept their right to exist
Propaganda is a double edged sword.
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extremists groups are on the rise in general since they see they are being accepted more these days.
only needs to look at lemmy to understand why they feel so comfortable coming out now more than ever.
Or Reddit. But don't look at Reddit lol.
What is going on with these posts? Why are all the comments deleted?
So, it says there are 17 comments, but I only see 5?
Albatross told me to go fuck myself. That user should definitely be banned. Where are all the other comments?
Uncivil comments are removed. Continued uncivil behavior can lead to a ban. Probably the case here.
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this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2023
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