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this post was submitted on 29 Sep 2023
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Pulling out a gun should have a VERY HIGH bar. This kid is clearly an idiot but was the bar high enough to kill him?
From the description of the incident, it definitely sounded like he feared for his life. A 6 foot something guy keeps advancing on him, asking why he's thinking of the guy's penis. He tells the guy to leave him alone multiple times, but the guy keeps advancing. He retreats multiple times, but the guy keeps at it. He even tries knocking the phone out of the guy's hand, but the guy keeps at it.
It definitely sounds like the guy was afraid of where this was going and tried all of the non-lethal options (retreat, tell the person to stop) before resorting to pulling out his gun. The YouTube "pranker" has nobody to blame but himself. He should have stopped when asked instead of repeatedly pressing the defendant for a YouTube "prank" video.
(I use "prank" in quotes because I don't consider this type of thing a real prank. It's just a guy acting like an idiot and calling it "a prank." A real prank should leave all involved laughing when it's revealed, not leave one person fearing for their life.)
He was in a public food court at a mall during lunch
Oh true. Violent acts had never happened in a food court before! /s
And?
So was Dominic Billa.
I've been robbed at a busy, open public library with a gaggle of elementary kids literally 15ft away. Being in public ain't the deterrent you think it is.
No it fucking doesn't. The whole thing lasted less than 30 seconds and the driver never tried to retreat. He told the prankster no a few times, tried to swat the phone out of his hands, and then shot him. It's not shocking that the jury had a difficult time coming up with a verdict.
The driver did try to retreat:
Running a youtube prank channel should justify a drone strike.
I'd watch the prankster-drone strike channel though.
Can the narrator be the cart narcs guy?
I am not a lawyer. So everything I say could be wrong and every state is different but generally I think there's a five point test for claims of self defense: Avoidance, Innocence, Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness.
Avoidance is moot because I think this is Virginia and I think they have a no-retreat provision. Innocence is just that you didn't willingly engage in a fight that got out of control. So that applies. Imminence applies because it happened in the moment. I just don't see how Proportionality applies here. I just don't see how holding a cell phone is proportional to a shooting. Emotionally I get it that the YouTuber is a major jerkwad and may have deserved a comeuppance. But I don't think the jury followed the law.
I'm not a lawyer. Everything I said there could be wrong
I kinda waver on reasonableness for cases like this but I generally think using a weapon against an unarmed aggressor is reasonable when there is a significant size disparity or a disability or something like that. In this case the "prankster" was significantly larger and had a group of friends with him so I don't think it's out of the question that the use of a gun for defense is reasonable in this situation.
I'm happy he didn't die over this, but I'm also kind of happy he got a little fucked up over it.
I tend to think about these situations with small people as the initial victim. How far should a smaller person or woman let something go before they can defend themselves? If the person is way, way bigger, do you just have to let yourself get beat?
He's still making videos, so apparently he didn't actually learn anything from the experience
I honestly don't know what the right answer is here. I don't like that it seems like it's easier to shoot someone because of a threatening feeling. This makes me think of Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman. People will say these are completely unrelated cases but both involved a shooting and a claim of self defense. Again I don't know what the answer is.
In that one I think ol' zimmy kinda deserved it and I wasn't happy with the charges/trial results.
I don't think it's the same at all, though. Zimmerman was the OG aggressor. He fucked around, found out and got butthurt and killed a kid.
If the defendant has been carrying a less lethal self defense measure, such as a taser, mace, or a baton, and had used that to defend himself, would you see that as more proportional?
I honestly don't know. Emotionally I agree with the verdict but intellectually I question it.
What would you have done in that situation?
Walked away, if necessary run away? Maybe throw a punch?
He did try to back away. And punching someone significantly larger than oneself is generally unwise.
He didn't continue to back away. He didn't run. Punching someone bigger is unwise, but not as unwise as trying to kill someone who arguably didn't even commit a crime.
I guess not according to Lemmy, lol. I don't care if the youtuber was. the size of Shaq, you can't just shoot someone for showing a phone in your face not even if he is following you.
No one was killed, so....
the whole point of firearms is that it's deadly force. you can't fire one at a person without being ready to take their life because it's always a likely outcome.
But no one was killed. You can't put a person in jail for shooting at someone else assuming that their intent was to kill.
This is coming from someone who despise the idea of owning a gun.
Shooting at someone is intending to kill them.
Source?
I would have thought it common sense, but sure: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/use-force-continuum
Firearms are at the bottom, under lethal force. There is no way to use firearms to be less-lethal.
That's just luck.
An inch either way that bullet could have been fatal.
You can certainly put them in jail for attempted murder. And that doesn't require proving they intended to kill that person, it only requires "conscious disregard" of whether their action could kill someone. For example, randomly shooting into someone's house.
This sounds like jury nullification more than an actual legal judgment.