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this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2024
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Sometimes I need to see the twitter feeds of people like this, as a reminder of exactly what women mean when they talk about men being scum.
Sometimes it hurts to be generalized into a category I don’t feel I belong to and it’s tempting to push back, but knowing that people are out there spending what appears to be all of their free time being horrible online and harassing women is a good reminder that women are pretty justified in having a low opinion of men in general.
Now I can go back to pretending twitter doesn’t exist for a while again.
The easiest way to see if it's OK is to swap out "men" with any other protected characteristic. If, having done that it suddenly becomes problematic, it was always so and they should've known better.
I think youre right not to engage them though. For all their talk of equality, anyone who talks like that just wants to be at the top of a new hierarchy. Remove or subjugate the men and most women (who haven't decolonisated their minds) will just replicate the same power structures, adopting the position of patriarch without a hint of self awareness. The way forward is to help other men see the pain caused to them by the patriarchy, as its only then that we can see the pain we cause through the patriarchy, due to the rituals of disregard and empathy killing we go through as boys.
I'll finish by saying the same thing I said to my dad, shortly after he lost his job" "yes dad, of course I've heard of the phrase 'sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.' However, you can't always do that, especially when you're meant to be firefighter, you doughnut.
You should reference my other comment in this thread. You're correct that statements like "all men are trash" are unjustly prejudiced, but you're making a false equivalence.
My point is that is that both are wrong, not that they are or are not both equally wrong. So, would you mind explaining where the equivalence is please?
I mean, I know its more of a case that some people don't like that both of those things are wrong to do but I'm gonna need a little more than that and a misunderstanding of an informal fallacy, sorry.
In your comment, whether intended or not. It's not a long comment. By "whatabouting" the idea of replacing men with any marginalized group, you are making a false equivalence via equivocation. By leaving out the crucial aspect of power imbalance, you minimize its role by implication. See: all lives matter in response to BLM.
Again, you don't understand what a false equivalence fallacy is. So, you should really stop attempting to use it because doing so is make you look like a fool.
Whatabouting and false equivalences aren't the same thing. I feel like I'm witnessing the death of irony here.
No, something wrong is still wrong, even if you feel bad about historical injustices. The power imbalance does not change this and also ignores every other intersection a white person could have.
You even drew a false equivalence the BLM which is the only actual false equivalence on this chain.
See the wiki pages of the fallacies you clearly don't understand.
God damn bougouise feminists.
God forbid a rhetorical argument fall into multiple categories. I never said whataboutism and false equivalences are the same thing. You happened to do both. Equivocation has nothing to do with setting two things as equal, it's the use of ambiguous language to avoid the bigger picture of an issue or to avoid committing to a stance. It is another form of logical fallacy. Via equivocation (omission and vague language) you omitted key facts (social power imbalance) that makes bringing up a connected, but not equivalent, issue (replacing men are trash with any other group, which is a form of whataboutism) a false equivalence.
You can say I don't know what I'm talking about. That doesn't make it true. Your equivocation of your whataboutism argument led to forming a false equivalence.
All lives matter in response to BLM is both whataboutism and a false equivalence. Just because someone didn't say "what about" or "these things are equal doesn't make those facts untrue. There is an implied "what about all those other lives, don't they matter?" which in itself implies that the societal inequalities BLM rose in response to are equal to the pressures felt but the rest of "all lives."
Lol
It’s always amusing to me to watch someone like the person you’re responding to try to browbeat an argument into submission by referencing pedantic technicalities and yet be so fundamentally wrong about what those technicalities actually mean.
Although on the topic of being pedantic, I kinda miss when whataboutism was called tu quoque. Really made the logical fallacy guys at least sound eloquent.
If one is to engage in pedantry, it can't hurt to at least be correct. Calling me a "bougouise feminist" was hysterical though.
I’m pretty sure any time you put two multi-syllable words next to each other it is by default a scathing burn. You don’t actually need to know what those words mean, in fact not knowing makes the burn so much more savage.
No. You are making an equivalence argument that misses the reality of power dynamics and the context of like centuries of documented social oppression.
Edit: Fuck I didn’t see erin beat me to it.
No, it's not an equivalence argument. I didn't say they were equally wrong or the same thing. Also, nether power dynamics nor oppression make those things right.
You're telling me that you see no problem with black people saying the same about all white people then?
Yes, I see no problem with black people saying the same about white people; because white people have a manufactured generational power gap supporting them which is designed around keeping black people poor, underrepresented, and under served in their communities.
Much the same way as how men have manufactured a generational power gap supporting them which is designed around keeping women underrepresented.
Just because it sucks for me personally doesn’t mean it’s an invalid sentiment.
But I didn't manufacture that and neither did you. It also, intentionally, ignores every single other intersection a white person could have.
Don't worry, the sentiment invalidates itself. That kind of backwards bougouise feminism died in the 80s and should've stayed that way.
If you’re a white male, and I think I can safely assume that you are from your comments in this thread, you are the direct beneficiary of a system that has propped you up over literally everyone else. Understanding that system, and your role in it, is critical to trying to finally tear it down to make room for a fair and equitable one.
I didn’t manufacture the system, but I acknowledge it and all I can do now is continue to undermine it by pointing it out constantly.
It's absolutely right to criticise the system that provides dividends for white people; for men; for straight, cis, able, neurotypical, tall, pretty people; and so on and so on... But even though I don't fit into all those boxes, I don't think that gives me the right to attack people that do.
The only person in this entire topic who could remotely be conceived as being attacked is the original poster of that twitter comment… who, if you look at his actual post history, absolutely deserves to be mocked for it.
I'm thinking really about your original comment, you mentioned people saying shit like "men are scum". I just don't think it's helpful and I'm sad that it's been normalised. I used to say stuff like that, but I just don't see the difference anymore. I know the power imbalance argument, but even as an impressed minority it just seems like a stupid thing to do... I've known and loved many men who are not responsible for the patriarchy, even if they benefit from it.
As the other commenter pointed out - even white men can suffer due to other intersections of identity. Just as women or other less privileged groups can benefit from other aspects...
Anyway, ramble over. I just find it saddening to see men accepting being called "scum" or whatever. Like, no, you aren't, at least I'd guess if you've taken the time to think about this. It's taking a statistic and trying to extrapolate an individual.
Well, I fundamentally agree that it sucks to call all men scum or trash or whatever. Generalizing tends towards sucking as a whole, and as the target demographic being called scum it doesn’t feel great.
I just try to step back and understand the why. I genuinely do not think most people saying “all men are trash” actually believe that, but they’ve been radicalized by pretty understandable circumstances to feel the need to lash out. It really, really sucks that we have prime examples like the original twitter poster demonstrating exactly where that emotion comes from.
So just because shitty men exist, we're supposed to say "welp generalizing us is fair because technically men like this exist"?
I have found pushing back is useless. People are just waiting for you to be a horrible "fragile man" instead of just realizing that being accurate in who you blame for being shitty matters. So yeah I wouldn't really conclude that if you see one example of someone being disgusting then you have to allow yourself to be falsely aligned with them.
You can just know the shitty generalizers are bigoted, and hope it's a phase for them. I certainly have never seen any value in either supporting that generalization or fighting against it.
People on the Internet love thinking they're better than you and that you're scum. The only way I know to deal with it is just by accepting it
This definitely misses the power imbalance of punching down vs up. If someone genuinely believes all men are "scum," yeah, that's prejudiced. However, there is a big difference between a group that has less power in society pushing up against the class that has more power or oppresses them and the reverse. The idea that "y group is (insert pejorative)" and "x group is (insert pejorative)" are equally bigoted statements assumes that x and y groups are equal in social power. Statements like "men are trash" or equivalent don't necessarily represent an individual's true opinion of all men, but a general pushing back against a group with more power, many individuals of which attempt to exercise their perceived privilege over women.
Women that say "all men are trash" or similar might not be thinking with this level of introspection and subtlety, but it's a subconscious reaction to their position as a group with less power. They rarely hold that on a personal level against every individual man, unless they've been deeply hurt. I have experienced things that make it harder for me to trust men. My friends have experienced things that make it harder to trust men. I do not think every man is evil. When you see the damage around you on societal levels, see the people calling for your rights to be taken away, see how they treat you like an object or property because of who you are, and you see it in the lives of many many people like you, it creates a resentment of the group that is responsible.
I am not suggesting that there are no women that take advantage of men. I am not suggesting that men cannot be abused. I am not suggesting that it's okay to make men feel responsible for the actions of people that share only a gender with them, nothing else. However, I am explaining why women might feel hurt or disempowered enough to push back against men in general, and why "men are trash" and "women are trash" (though far more often, the phrase when targeted at women takes a sexual connotation: whores, etc) are not equivalent statements. Both the women that have been hurt and the men that feel hurt by the byproduct of their resentment are victims of the patriarchy. Until everyone, regardless of gender, holds the same societal power, there will always be people of all groups being hurt by the imbalance.
TLDR: Don't resent the women who are a product of their environment saying "men are trash," resent the patriarchy that hurts men and women alike.
Additionally, statements like men are trash can hurt other marginalized groups. I've heard "men are trash" be followed or countered with "except trans men." This is transphobic. I'd like to make it very clear that "men are trash" is an unjustly prejudiced statement, but it is one that is a product of a broken system. See: ACAB.
Thanks for saving me the keystrokes here, I appreciate you (for real, which I’m having to say because text and… you know… how online people are).
<3
Honestly if you have to write paragraphs to defend something that is intuitively ignorant and bigoted to do, you've lost the argument by default
I think she "had to" write that much because she knew the thickness of the skull she was trying to penetrate. And your counter-"argument" only proves that point.
P.S. Just because you think something is intuitive to you doesn't mean it's correct. It just shows you're part of the system that needs replacing.
And if you took the time to read my messages, you'd recognize that I agree that saying "all men are trash" is an unjustly prejudiced statement. What you aren't realizing is the societal pressures and power imbalances which you've conveniently ignored in your argument. You're taking the same rhetorical role as the "all lives matter" people in response to BLM. I'm not arguing with you. I'm explaining to you. It's your choice to learn or to stick your head in the sand, and it makes no difference to me.
Yep.
See the sibling reply from @erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone here for a great explanation about how power dynamics work on this topic, but also:
One example? Really? That’s horse shit and you know it. Misogynistic behavior is a rampant, massive problem everywhere; online and in real life.
Have you tried not to hate yourself? WTF are you even on, there is a high chance that it's a joke, and even if it isn't why would "men" be scum here instead of individual?
He clearly doesn't hate himself. Stop trying to us vs them.
"Men" are harmful in the same way that you don't put your hand on an electric stove. You assume it's going to hurt you until you find out otherwise.
Sorry but if you don't see how that comparison is beyond not ok somethings wrong here. Which isn't to say you can't feel like that bc that's just the natural result of bad experiences.
Easily half the turkish immigrants I've interacted with were people begging or threatening me on the street, that doesn't mean I assume turkish immigrants are assholes. Because I know it's both selection bias (most normal ppl just mind their business and don't randomly talk to you, immigrants are poorer on avg so there are more homeless immigrants). And even if 95% were pieces of shit I'd still at most be more careful, but not somehow try to include all the ones that aren't a problem in the group that I'm complaining about.
You don't understand pounding down vs punching up.
I don’t hate myself.
I hate that enough men out there are such amazing assholes that it has created a generational issue which understandably has led to the assumption that as a man I’m probably an asshole too.
I hate that women understandably see me in public and make assumptions about my risk factor to them because victimizing women is way too common place.
Me, however, I’m pretty ok with.
You can't justify racism or sexism in any direction without indirectly justifying it in the other direction.
Blaming an entire group for the acts of a subset of that group removes the disincentive to become a part of the subset and adds a disincentive to support those who want to fight the injustice that gets reduced to another racial or gender conflict.
I think it's no wonder that many gen z males have decided to reject the mindset that demonizes white men in general, even though that mindset is often quick to add, "there's some good ones!"
And the whole justification of "they have more power" means dick all to individuals that fall in the group that feel powerless in their life. Plus there's that little voice wondering if the racism will fade if the power balance does shift or if it will be the same thing but with oppression going in the other direction.