750
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 09 Aug 2024
750 points (100.0% liked)
World News
41102 readers
3356 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Not defending this woman, but as an American, the thought of being arrested for lying on the internet (or repeating a rumor, as she claims) seems insane.
“As a German, I find myself groaning when I see this discussion come up. Conspiracy theorists are not rational. If fascists could be swayed by facts and reason, they would not believe what even the most minor bit of fact checking would disprove. Allowing them to spew their nonsense freely or join a coalition won't disabuse them of their notions; it will help them seek and build echo-chambers and become further radicalized.We see the echo chamber effect on every online platform. Whether or not the holocaust happened, for example, is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. You're entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Making up your own facts is called lying. And when your lies are so malicious and harmful that they actually pose a threat to other people or the nation itself, then yes, that should absolutely be punishable. It's no different than slander or libel.
“What value is there to allowing holocaust denial? Serious question. And I don't mean appealing to the slippery slope of how it leads to other worse prohibitions. There's a lot of arguing for Free Speech for its own sake - that Free Speech is the highest virtue in and of itself that must never, ever be compromised, for any reason, and that this should be self-evident. But I ask, what's the harm in not allowing holocaust denial, specifically? What is the benefit in allowing it? There is none. Nothing good will ever come out of someone spewing holocaust denial. Ever. You won't get a thoughtful debate beneficial to both parties. They're wrong, simple as that. The "best" outcome you'll get out of it is that you can convince a denier or someone on the fence that they're wrong. Great. The best outcome involves suppressing it. There are, however, a hell of a lot potentially bad consequences in that their stupidity can infect others and shift the Overton window their way.
“The reason that the majority of modern Germans look at the Nazi flag and feel nothing but revulsion whereas a sizable portion of US southerners actually fly the confederate flag and defend it (Heritage, not hate, or It was about states' rights, not slavery, or Slaves weren't treated so bad) is that Germans were forbidden from telling each other comforting lies about their past."
— quote I stole from unknown redditor
That's a very well written quote that makes a good point.
Conspiracy theorists form echo-chambers to repeat their ridiculous claims amongst themselves and it poses a challenge to the rest of us to figure out how to prevent this without compromising our own values.
The sentiment I was trying to communicate is that involving the police as enforcers of truth on the internet is simply a foreign concept to me as an American. It feels heavy handed and I think carries an obvious risk.
It's easy to cheer on when it's happening to someone we dislike, like the racist lady in question, but I think it's important to take a step back and make sure it truly aligns with our basic principles of freedom.
No, it's never OK to incite violence. The crime here isn't lying on the internet, it's spreading misinformation in order to incite violence.
...and how exactly is the intent going to be proven? The post itself isn't an incitement to violence, she isn't even claiming that what she posted was the truth, merely saying "if this is the truth".
The people who need to go to jail are the rioters, not some random woman who (in a charitable interpretation) simply reposted something online.
She was the first to post the incendiary racist lie, and she posted it claiming it should result in violence. I think Farage and Tate should also be charged for amplifying it (but Tate isn't in the country).
You think that the people who rioted should go to prison but not the woman who started the ball rolling and first suggested the rioting online? Punish the footmen but not the ringleaders? Your morality is screwy.
Words can have power. Don't use them to start violence in the streets of the UK. We'll put you behind bars for that and not be sorry.
Ringleaders? Again you claim there is intent, where is the proof of this? Also, where is she inciting violence?
Compare this to Aaronovitch tweeting (allegedly as a joke) that Biden should have Trump murdered a few days before the assassination attempt. Did he get arrested?
If one online post of (potentially innocent) misinformation is enough to rile up riots on the streets of your country, clearly your society is pretty severely fucked up and needs a reality check.
Needing to lock up random civilians because they said something inconvenient is not exactly a sign of strength or morality, at least in my book.
Far right nut jobs rioting for political purposes isn't the same as the whole country going crazy. It's not society in general that's fucked up and needs a reality check, it's the far right nut jobs. (Far, far more people turned up for the Hope not Hate counter protests, which were peaceful.)
I think this is an absurdly naïve reading of the tweet in which she quite clearly expresses that violence is the inevitable result of the wrong immigration status of the suspect. It's very clearly a lie designed to stoke anger and foment violence. Which it did. Far right nut jobs go to prison for rioting. Far right nut jobs that incite the violence go to prison. Good.
She's not a random civilian, she's the one at the start of the chain of events.
"saying something inconvenient" and calling for violence on a false racist narrative are not morally equivalent. You're not winning the moral argument by equating them.
Please try not to use words like "inconvenient" in a discussion about far right street violence. It's a bit insensitive and comes across as trivialising the issue.
Actions should have consequences. Her lie set of at least a week of needless chaos and destruction. It gave racist shit-heads an excuse (in their minds at least) to vandalize property, attack police and counter-protesters, and terrorize innocent people.
If she was the person who originated this lie then I hope they throw the book at her. If she just publicized a lie she heard from elsewhere she should still be punished, but probably not as much.
Freedom of speech should not equate to impunity for spreading egregious lies and hate-mongering. We should be coming down harder on people here in America who deliberately spread lies with bad faith intentions. Skin color, religion, etc should have any sway in when we apply such actions and when we don't.
ETA: I didn't downvote you, by the way. You're entitled to your opinion, and I feel like your point is a gateway to deeper discussion.
I appreciate the discussion. I knew this wouldn't be a popular take and almost deleted it before commenting.
Again, I think spreading lies on the internet is an appalling thing to do, but I just wanted to share my disbelief that someone could be arrested for it. Like, imagine if the cops showed up with handcuffs for everyone's grandparents for every racist email forward (or Facebook post) they shared.
I know it's tempting to want bad things to happen to people we don't like, but I think situations like this are a test of our ethics and values.
How is it really different from starting a white supremacy group and calling to 'expel immigrants' in posters around a city? The only difference from any other racist/terrorist action is that it was placed online. Do we really need to allow that to be okay?
If only. Wouldn't that be fucking grand.
The amount of harm and loss of live those stupid things lead to has no place in society and people should be held responsible for it.
Deliberately lying with an agenda of misleading the public in order to achieve certain goal should 100% be a criminal offence.
I mean, you're pointing the finger at the spark while ignoring the barrels of fuel stored in dangerous conditions. These people WANTED to riot, if she hadn't given them the reason, they'd have found another soon.
Yeah, and the rioters who were caught are in police custody. But the person going in the fuel depot with the lit match absolutely is not innocent of causing the inferno.
The problem is in who decides what speech should be punished.
How about we get both sides of the argument to meet in a big large room, we can present the facts of what happened, and allow trained professionals and/or a selection of her peers to judge what should be punished on a case by case basis?
Nah sounds ridiculous, let’s just do nothing.
I don't think that would do a lot in terms of protecting unpopular speech.
There's unpopular speech and there's speech that starts nationwide riots. I don't get how you're confusing them.
I'm not confusing them. But I'm also not a fan of using the power if the state to punish people I disagree with, even if they say vile things. Such power will inevitably be abused, turned against me, etc.
It's safer in the long run to preserve free speech and expression, even if it means people get away with being asshats.
They're not being punished for disagreeing with the government - that was when the conservative government made it illegal to protest climate change. No, they're being punished for causing violence. It's not that the opinion is wrong, it's that the far right lies caused far right rioting. I don't know why anyone thinks that should be consequence free. It's crazy that you would think it should be allowed.
If you lie and say I stabbed 3 children, you open yourself to libel.
But if you do it for a fake person and it starts riots, what should happen? There are no damages to an individual like libel, instead it's for society as a whole. So do nothing when the outcome is worse? Seems backward.
I think the difference is whether there's a specific threat or call to action. "If (blank) is true, (blank) will likely happen" is a sentiment I see online frequently, even here.
I would consider that different than, for example, Trump instructing a mob of people to "march on the capital" on January 6th. That's a call to action that resulted in deaths.
This lady sounds like someone's racist mom who shared misinformation on social media and her post went viral. She deserves to be shunned, but I don't think jail is the right answer.
I don’t think that’s quite right, because there’s no instruction associated with spreading lies about someone. You don’t have to say “you should attack this person based on this [random lie]” to be guilty of libel. The lie itself causes the bad consequences that now make you guilty.
The Picard Maneuver is a the owner and organiser of a secret pedo ring operated by Mormons in Utah.
If this is true (wink wink), you better hide the entrance to your secret basement.
...
Imagine if intentionally sending crazy people on crazy missions to intentionally cause harm wasn't OK.
I understand the point you're making, but the fact that you are able to type this with full confidence that cops aren't going to show up at your door tomorrow is my point.
Lying is wrong, but the police arresting someone for repeating/creating a made up name of a murderer on twitter is bizarre to me.
(edit: for clarity, because she might have been the one who made up the fake name)
did she repeat it? or was she the source?
The article implies she was the sources and thus, despite her claims, made it up
Why? If you spreaded false rumor which nearly resulted in a couple hundred people being burned alive, you 100% should be arrested. Words have consequences.
The fault I find with this reasoning is that it only works retroactively. The determination of whether or not this random woman committed a crime when she tweeted a rumor relies on the actions that other people decided to take.
If her tweet hadn't gone viral, would it have still been a crime? That's an unsettling way to determine whether someone is a criminal who needs to be locked up or not.
You appear somehow ignorant how the law works. It is about adult humans being able to predict consequences of their actions.
If you are travelling at speed (but still below the speed limit) on an icy road and you kill someone, you go to prison for a long time as you should be able to predict you may kill someone.
If you shoot a projectile and it goes beyond the boundaries of your land, you may end up in jail again - you should be able to predict the projectile may go beyond the boundary.
She should have been able to predict the consequences of her spreading lies.
Adults are responsible for the consequences of their actions.
I think that predictability is the crux of the surprise about her being charged. I don't think I could say anything to start national riots. Maybe that isn't true, but I would never assume that would be the consequences of one of my tweets. Who is this woman that she should have expected she had that kind of influence?
You're basically saying
And there's a difference in magnitude in most crimes too. Like if you steal a grape from a supermarket as you do your weekly shop, that's very different to stealing an entire chicken, which is also different to stealing a TV.
Spreading outrageous lies that result in harassment and violence is clearly not something to tolerate.
The US is not a good example to bring up if you want to argue it is fine to allow it.
Allowing others' speech is the default. The ethical question is where we draw the line in silencing or punishing someone's speech.
In the US, the line would generally be specific threats or calls for violence. Someone being hateful or spreading awful rumors online could be a lawsuit by the wronged party, but you aren't going to have cops show up at your door with handcuffs.
Freedom of speech is not a freedom to lie.
Yes it is.
It's morally wrong, but people who lie on the internet are not criminals.
It absolutely isn't.
If a sales person sells you a faulty car claiming it works, it's a fraud, not a freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech covers opinions and ideas, not factual lies.
People's brains fall out of their heads on this one hey? Like wtf, you're actually responsible for what you say seems pretty basic. Nobody is arguing for prosecuting anyone who expresses opinions, or what they earnestly believe to be true and communicate in good faith. Just, if you make shit up and people get hurt well then, you did that hey.
The first amendment rights don't necessarily protect you from the consequences of speech.
Speech can facilitate crime, e.g. libel and slander.
Whereas the true insanity is to let people get away with openly inciting race hate which leads to life threatening real-world consequences for the people on the receiving end of the lies.
Absolute free speech is the refuge of those without the common sense and maturity to realise it has led to deaths. It is entirely appropriate to legislate for those who want, or encourage, life threatening harm to come to others.
Look up the original judgement on the Maya Forstater tribunal. "In a functioning democracy, some beliefs are not worthy of respect," or words to that effect. If you think inciting racist riots shouldn't be criminal, then write to your MP about it.
There are different levels of lying though aren't there. This woman had a history of stirring trouble, and if the motive AND outcome of this lie were to stir up trouble on as large a scale as possible, then to not oppose this behaviour would be to invite more unrest.
The whole country just rioted based on a complete fabrication; a racist lie, cynically fabricated for the purpose of provocation. That needs to be addressed, and if she is the provocateur then she needs to be punished, because that type of behaviour is evidently destructive to society.
As an American, I wish out right lying and libel was more prevalently an arrestable offense.