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[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.dbzer0.com 229 points 10 months ago

My husband and I own a house, but I'd give it up in a second for living in an apartment, if it meant housing for all

I'd wait in longer lines for healthcare, if it meant healthcare for all

I'd eat foods I don't much care for, if it meant food for all

I'd wait at a bus depot or train station, if it meant equitable transportation and saving the planet

It's hard for me to fathom that there are people who wouldn't do the same, who are willing to let others suffer for the tiniest bit of potential luxury

And before someone comes in with "lOoK wHaT a GoOd PeRsOn YoU aRe," I'm really not. It doesn't take a good person to not wish suffering on others.

[-] cerement@slrpnk.net 81 points 10 months ago

the irony is that we wouldn’t need to sacrifice much (if at all) for those benefits – in other words, you could be completely selfish and still have a better life

  • US is sitting at 28 vacant homes per homeless person (city of Helsinki saved the country of Finland €15000 per person per year just by buying them a house)
  • healthcare for all (and better quality) would cost us about 2/3 what we’re paying now
  • we produce (and have) plenty of food for everyone but companies would rather throw it away if they can’t make a profit (John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath)
  • better public transit means more convenience for everyone with the added benefits of better air quality, nicer neighborhoods, less wear-and-tear on infrastructure, cheaper commuting – !fuck_cars@lemmy.ml
[-] Kallioapina@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

On the Finnish homelesness part: you're spouting misinfo, knowingly or unknowingly. Our system doesnt buy houses or apartments to anyone.

Every homeless person though IS offered a flat in a socially subsidized, very cheap price as part of a social program and/or place in a substance abuse coliving program-type of thing (not sure on the spesifics of those).

Its weird how there's so much misinformation about Finland in Lemmy these days, like were some magical egelitarian happy-land. No, we just pay our taxes and have built up a social security net, though thats actively being dismantled by our right wing government these days.

Source of all of this: I am a finn.

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[-] Bytemeister@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

US is sitting at 28 vacant homes per homeless person

This pisses me off so much. There should be an extra tax for unfilled housing.

[-] Rookwood@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

Yes, everyone having a better quality of life would elevate everyone who isn't wealthy enough to isolate into a fenced off estate and has servants to do all their domestic tasks.

[-] Rookwood@lemmy.world 37 points 10 months ago

This means you're a good person but these trade-offs are false dichotomies. None of it is necessary to provide these services to all. We already have incredibly long wait times for healthcare in our ruthlessly for-profit system. The only thing that keeps those services from everyone is the greed of the extremely wealthy and the stupidity of those who fall for their lies.

[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 10 months ago

I'm well aware, but I'm saying even if it were true that we had to, it would be well worth it.

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 32 points 10 months ago

I’d wait in longer lines for healthcare, if it meant healthcare for all

I don't blame you for it, but this is such a bullshit talking point, at least when it comes to U.S. for-profit healthcare. I had to wait over 6 months to see a neurologist after my old one moved to another city. I had to wait two months to get my gallbladder removed just to find out if it would solve a medical problem it didn't solve. I have to go to the Mayo clinic now. I made an appointment in December. I can get in at the end of March.

On top of that, some evaluations that would have helped my daughter a lot earlier took a year and a half from when we scheduled them and we had to drive to another city an hour and a half away by car.

That's pretty much on par with what I hear from people who live in Canada, if not worse.

[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 10 months ago

but this is such a bullshit talking point

Absolutely agree! As I said to a couple others, view my comment as more of a thought experiment, an "even if" type thing (which I should have probably prefaced it with). Even if the talking points were real, it would still be bullshit.

None of the things on my list necessitate sacrificing the other, except for maybe the use of public transportation.

I'm really sorry for what you went through. I went through something similar, and on top of everything else we're adding fuel to the fire by putting ourselves at the mercy of massive private insurance companies.

You're preaching to the choir!

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

I'm sorry you have gone through the same thing! I wish I was an outlier case, but I'm a common story and so are you. I wish I had the means to emigrate to Canada or Europe. Anywhere with universal healthcare. We also owe thousands in medical debt and we're going to owe thousands more this year! I'm guessing it's the same for you.

[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 10 months ago

Oh yeah, I've dreamed about the same!

So I had $50,000 debt from my misdiagnosed appendicitis that turned gangrenous, which I could never pay. Fortunately, after a year of getting collections called on me and losing everything I had ever saved, a charity paid all but several thousand on my behalf.

Then before I could pay off those thousands, I was involunantarily put in the psych ward and dumped out a couple days later with no ride home: $8000 (still paying, still accruing interest)

Then my celiac/severe lactose intolerance diagnoses cost several thousand, I don't even know, I stopped keeping track

And through all this, the only times I didn't have to wait months were when my appendix had turned gangrenous and was about to kill me, and when the cops put me in custody.

I've had a toothache for a couple years, but I haven't gone into the dentist because ... that's more thousands, for sure. I'm thinking about taking out dental insurance, but is it worth it? I've had it in the past, and I still paid thousands out of pocket.

I can't even express what I'd give to have access to just basic healthcare.

Oh, and not that this should matter, but I've always done everything "right." I put what I could in savings (wasn't enough), I've worked 40+ hours a week, I've tried to always have insurance (except the year that I got appendicitis because my employer opted not to rehire me when they learned that I was gay).

We probably can't migrate to Canada, probably not Norway (even though I have family there), but we've talked about Mexico where he's from, where even though it's not really socialized, at least it's not so far out of reach for us.

Sorry, didn't mean to make this all about me. I feel like the people who oppose universal healthcare are people who are rich enough to at least never have to go through this sort of thing and can deceive themselves into thinking what we have now is working.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

I'm really sorry you had to go through all of that. I'm not going to list all of my current health issues, but the dentist one I can certainly sympathize with because I have a nerve disorder in my face and that means if I go to a dentist, I have to be put under completely or I will probably start screaming. I can't afford that, so I have to live with what I know for sure is a cavity.

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[-] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 17 points 10 months ago

Woah woah woah. That's coMmuNiSM

[-] FunkyMonk@kbin.social 9 points 10 months ago

Komrad, Do you think we can trick them by calling it Republic+?

[-] frickineh@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

Oh damn, that's an idea. Make it a "monthly subscription" instead of a tax and I bet lots of people would go for it. "For $x, you get to watch all these shows and if you subscribe now, we'll throw in medical care FREE!"

[-] Bye@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

I wouldn’t do those things, but we shouldn’t have to. We don’t have to give up quality medical care for everyone to have it. Or give up houses for everyone to have a place to live. The resources for these things are held by the ultra wealthy, not by the middle class.

[-] Zagorath@aussie.zone 7 points 10 months ago

You're right about the healthcare thing, because we can just hire more medical professionals and give them better working conditions (including but not limited to pay).

Housing is different. Single family houses take up a lot of space. Space that necessarily reduces space available for other homes. You need to increase average housing density in order to be able to house everyone at a price that is affordable within a reasonable distance of opportunities for work and social activities.

[-] Bye@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

Single family houses worked just great when we didn’t have 8 billion people. Density is a function of population too

[-] Zagorath@aussie.zone 4 points 10 months ago

Yes. And today they don’t work great. I’m living in today, and hope to plan to live in the future. I don’t plan to spend any more time living in the past, so I don’t advocate policies that might have worked in the past if they don’t also work in the future.

That said, the large single-family homes that dominate America and my own home country of Australia actually didn’t work "just great". They created an over-reliance on the automobile, and by extension the fossil fuel industry. They ramped up rates of health problems relating to the fact that people get less exercise when they can’t walk or ride a bike to do basic errands. They isolated people from their sense of belonging to a community, and they stunted the growth in independence of children who now require to be driven by parents everywhere, rather than getting on their bikes and riding. The lawns that are synonymous with houses are also terrible ecologically.

So yes, if you look narrowly at it from a housing affordability standpoint, in the past, single family homes worked "just great". But that’s not true today, and it was never true if you look at it from the broader societal impact.

[-] Kalkaline@lemmy.zip 11 points 10 months ago

The lines are still long with private insurance, you're not getting in for specialty procedures very quickly no matter what payment method you use. I say this as someone who does specialty neurodiagnostic procedures in the US. We don't care if you can pay or you have this insurance or that, there's a line everywhere and unless you're coming in through the ED, you have to wait in it.

[-] lennybird@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Keep in mind, too, that in a single-payer system, preventative care is more heavily emphasized. This shifts the load bearing of the system on the front-end (PCPs, NPs) and in theory problems are identified before they snowball into greater issues that require specialties.

[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 10 months ago

Thank you. This is also an important point.

My comment was more of a thought experiment, since none of the things I listed actually require sacrificing the other.

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[-] GladiusB@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

The problem is the ones that need to care the most are the ones that care the least. The richest people in the world are in pissing contests about big ass clocks and space ships.

Do I think these are intellectually cool? Yes. Do I think it's more important than feeding every kid and giving them shelter and education? No.

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[-] Daft_ish@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

The only thing I won't settle for is wage slavery. No one should be held hostage to a job that has stolen their sense of wonder.

[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 10 months ago

I'm so lucky to have a job where I can help people and feel good, at a non-profit that isn't causing harm.

I know not everyone can have this, but we can make it so.

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[-] Xtallll 52 points 10 months ago

It's not that nobody deserves a yacht, it's that capitisim gives yachts to the wrong people. My middle school librarian deserves a yacht, my 9th grade science teacher deserves a yacht, Jefferson Bezoar does not deserve a yacht.

[-] stebo02@lemmy.dbzer0.com 24 points 10 months ago

It's not that Bezes doesn't deserve a yacht. It's that he doesn't deserve 176.9 million of them. If all money in the US was distributed equally then everyone in the US could have a small yacht. But of course we can't be ignoring the rest of the world.

[-] Kit 14 points 10 months ago

If money was distributed equally among adults in the US, everyone would make around $90k/year income. Not enough to afford a yacht. Not even enough to afford a house in some parts of the country. That's kind of mind blowing to me.

[-] CrowAirbrush@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

If everyone would make $90k then the economy would be completely different.

I think Lamborghini would be making some budget version of their current supercars, that would never come to exist in a 90k world.

To just name a random item that popped in my head.

[-] III@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

If everyone would make $90k then the economy would be completely different.

$600 gallon of milk. It goes on from there.

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[-] thatsTheCatch@lemmy.nz 4 points 10 months ago

However, if that's to every adult, then couples would be making $180k combined, with which they might be able to save up for a yacht or a house

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[-] NounsAndWords@lemmy.world 31 points 10 months ago

I think it's really "why should they get a thing for free that I've been working so hard for?" while they should be asking "why do I have to work so hard just to afford a decent place to live?"

[-] Rooskie91@discuss.online 19 points 10 months ago

The original quote is "Temporarily embarrassed capitalists," which I think says a lot more about where we are.

[-] ares35@kbin.social 19 points 10 months ago

an old client always said:

"i'm working on my second million..."

....

"i gave up on the first one."

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 18 points 10 months ago

Would love to own a yacht but only if I had enough money to pay people to do maintenance. Owning even a much smaller boat is fucking annoying.

[-] RGB3x3@lemmy.world 20 points 10 months ago

The real cost of a boat is like 90% maintenance costs. It's just a money pit, honestly.

The better use of obscene riches is to charter a yacht that has a full crew when you want to go out. Otherwise, you're just burning cash.

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 12 points 10 months ago

Two happiest days of a boat owner: when buying the boat and when selling it

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[-] OpenStars@startrek.website 13 points 10 months ago

Woah hold on there, it's not like the Bible (that they point to as the source of authority e.g. that is why what Israel does is "good") says "the worker deserves their wages", or "treat the immigrant and poor among you as your own", or "whatsoever you do to the least of these, it's like you are doing it directly to me", or even more foundational basics like "show kindness to people"... right?

The effects of brainwashing are quite strong. We need to find a way to get even stronger if we want to overcome.

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this post was submitted on 14 Jan 2024
1112 points (100.0% liked)

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