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I'm politically agnostic and have moved from a slightly conservative stance to a vastly more progressive stance (european). i still dont get the more niche things like tankies and anarchists at this point but I would like to, without spending 10 hours reading endless manifests (which do have merit, no doubt, but still).

Can someone explain to me why anarchy isnt the guy (or gal, or gang, or entity) with the bigger stick making the rules?

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[-] Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml 153 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Anarchism understood as a proper model and not just "chaos" is about horizontal and distributed power structures.

The whole idea is that no single person or group has a monopoly on power. Now if you are asking how do anarchist societies prevent people or groups like that from rising up and forming monopolies of power, there are a bunch of different answers. Ultimately it's about collective action and proper structure.

If your organization's rules allow for a single person to rise up and take over, it isn't formed correctly. It's like the Fediverse, no one server or person gets to make the rules for all the other servers or developers.

Everything is federated by the choice of the instances and ultimately the users. If they don't agree with how any instance is being run, they can start their own and run it how they want, federating with who they want assuming it is mutual.

Anybody can fork the project at any time, build it different, start a new instance, run it how they want, etc.

You build into your society, mechanisms that resist monopolies of power. It's like how your body's immune system has layers of protection against all kinds of germs.

Another example, in typical small company the structure is top-down with the owner usually being a single person with universal power over all their employees. They can hire and fire whoever they want whenever they want. They can shut down the company or change how any part of it operates whenever they want. Nothing in that company structure protects the employees from abuse by the owner.

There is no magic bullet to protect against everything, just like how your body despite being healthy and strong can still succumb to cancer, infection, poison, etc. That isn't a reason to just give up on being fit and healthy, because it is about improving your odds and trying to make your life on the average better.

[-] Candelestine@lemmy.world 54 points 10 months ago

I was going to engage in some debate with this, but after your last paragraph I no longer find it necessary.

It illustrates one of the nastier, but also more important of life lessons. No system or even choice is going to be without its own flaws and vulnerabilities, they'll just be different ones from system to system. So, it's less about any one system being "right", or even just "better", but instead "appropriate to the circumstances/environment/goals".

Once you acknowledge this, it becomes a lot harder to passionately defend any particular system, because you're no longer as eager to ignore its own unique vulnerabilities. I believe deeply in democracy and freedom of information for instance, but I cannot bring myself to ignore that it creates a vulnerability for us that someone like Xi Jinping, with his powerful control over the local information space, simply does not experience.

Authoritarian systems, on the other hand, have to deal with the very basic fact that there is nothing divine or magical about that man on top, he's as human as the rest of us. So, if you get rid of him, you may be able to take and keep his job. Where in a democracy you'd just have to face re-election within a few years.

Pros and cons, always, with pretty much everything. Then the next most important consideration imo is simply scale. Some systems work very well within very small scales, say, a small family. But when scaling these systems up, it can change the circumstances enough that their value changes.

To illustrate this I always like to use littering a banana peel. If just one person litters a banana peel, it is largely harmless. If, however, a million people litter banana peels all in one spot, you can actually create a potential problem where one did not exist before. Scaling the behavior up changes how we need to think about it. This has a lot of ramifications for business in the modern world, where scale is usually desirable. Also feeds into many civil engineering problems.

[-] janonymous@lemmy.world 52 points 10 months ago

I think it is important to add that even though no system is perfect and every system has it's pros and cons, that doesn't make them equal. As soon as we define goals, for example equal rights, some systems will be better equipped at achieving those while others might be actively hostile to them.

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[-] JeSuisUnHombre@lemm.ee 28 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I don't think you're saying anything contrary but I wanted to make one point clear.

The democracy we live under is not unique to capitalism. In fact, our current system has less democracy than an anarchist system would. Also capitalism doesn't have any requirement to be democratic. Whereas with anarchism, any dictatorship is directly against the core tenets of the system.

That being said, (I have not read enough theory to know for sure but) anarchism doesn't necessarily preclude the idea of having managers or even CEO's. It does preclude those positions having total power and control of an enterprise though. Dismantling the hierarchical structure of modern society doesn't mean having someone be a coordinator of a larger group isn't helpful. It just means that job isn't given greater power or more significance than those being coordinated. Our current idea of a CEO is very dictatorial, but that's not how it has to be.

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[-] jlow@beehaw.org 13 points 10 months ago

Oh, I never thought of the Fediverse being anarchic (anarchistic?), that's a nice thought (then again servers are mostly structured hierarchical with admins and mods and users?).

I'm not sure how well it translates into societies, though. I love the principles of anarchy, I strongly believe that there should be no one ruling over or deciding for other people but I'm not sure this would work in reality since I can just see how the people with the "big stick" (armies) would just invade us while we're endlessly debating what the best course of action is. I know this is a bleak outlook on the world but you can kind of see it happening now where Russia can just count on Europe and the US arguing among themselves (in their respective systems) while the dictatorship is just fucking shit up. I sure hope I'm proven wrong!

[-] pupbiru@aussie.zone 12 points 10 months ago

bear in mind here that i’m very much not well-versed in anarchist philosophy, but

servers are mostly structured hierarchical with admins and mods and users

i think even in systems like direct democracy (afaik a kind of anarchy because people directly vote on everything?) it doesn’t really scale and you end up needing to elect someone to make implementation decisions toward the overall goals of the society

the key is that it should be very easy to replace that person, and they should have no real “power” other than things that people would mostly come to the same conclusions about anyway - they’re an administrator, a knowledge worker, and their job is procedural

in the fediverse, we join servers whereby we agree to their rules. moderators and admins are a procedural role that is about interpreting and implementing those rules. we can replace them at any time by changing servers and our loss is minimal - less so on mastodon because of the account transfer feature! thus their power over us is always an individual choice and not something that is forced upon us either explicitly or implicitly

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[-] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 10 points 10 months ago

thank you for explaining. This makes it a lot easier to grasp.

Do you have a source that slowly zooms in on the topic so I can read stuff that helps me get an idea of more concepts regarding this?

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[-] vexikron@lemmy.zip 66 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Because no one knows anything whatsoever about actual anarchist political theory.

Largely due to it being heavily suppressed and propagandized against by States, capitalist or 'Communist', and their adherents.

Anarchy as thought of by the wide and vast majority of people is simply a state of chaos and violence with no clear rulers.

What Anarchy actually is is fairly simple.

Root words derive from Greek.

An- Prefix: Without

Archon: Tyrant/Cruel and Ruthless Ruler/Undefiable Authority

Non insane Anarchists are always critics of the state, corporate structures of organizing the work place, most forms of organized religion, oppressive social norms and anything that creates and maintains any kind of hierarchy in society that results in oppression, impoverishment or cruelty to any particular group of people for illegitimate reasons.

Anarchy is essentially very similar in many ways to communism as Marx envisioned it, in that it is an idealized, as yet not perfectly defined goal of a just, egalitarian and democratic society that heavily emphasizes people being adequately represented economically in their daily lives as workers, as opposed to the standard liberal capitalist model where your boss essentially has authoritarian power over you in the workplace.

Both Marxism and Anarchism are highly critical of the profit motive and the ability of a very small number of people to own all or much of the capital (means of production such as factories) of a society, for very lengthy and detailed reasons.

A very common misunderstanding is what is truly meant by 'private property': most people unfamiliar with Marxism or Anarchism believe that Marxists and Anarchists believe that no one should be allowed to singly, individually own /anything/.

This is false. While many different adherents have different precise definitions, generally speaking private possessions are just fine until they get to the point of owning something directly and singly that has a massive impact on the lives of others should you choose to unilateraly use your 'property rights' in a way that is beneficial to you personally, but harmful to a large number of other people.

Further, Marxists and Anarchists both generally agree that 'property rights' as we currently conceive of them really only functionally exist for the rich and powerful, and are enforced via the power of the state.

Anarchism significantly differs from many later Marxist derived theories such as Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism that generally emphasize that in order to actually achieve an ideal, non capitalist society, one must create a massive state structure (or subvert an existing one) and place all power to reorganize a capitalist economy into a class of totalitarian economic organizers and planners, and that during this process the state is entirely justified in basically any means of crushing dissent it deems necessary.

This is of course heinous to Anarchists, who view a totalitarian state as essentially criminal.

What modern Anarchists, who are, again, not insane, usually support are working both within and outside of existing norms and government structures to meaningfully improve peoples lives amd expand their rights:

Mutual Aid: Direct Involvement in you local community to feed the hungry, house the unhoused, provide aid to the sick and displaced.

Advocacy: Doing what you can to promote ideas and views that will be beneficial to the masses, or to protect at risk minorities, both within existing formal societal structures like governments and businesses, and also within society generally.

Many modern Anarchists are also very concerned about the power if states and corporations to abuse the environment and curtail freedom of expression.

Anarchy also has another useful definition in the context of a world of nation-states:

Anarchy is that same common understanding of a world without rules and chaos, but the realization that this simply describes our current world given the history of actions of and between nation states, who often engage in many harmful acts against other nation-states and their populations, and rarely actually follow any rules or norms which are supposed, but i actuality rarely do, govern affairs between states. States will often do whatever they believe they can get away with that will benefit themselves, even if it means massively harming another state or group of people.

Finally, if you want to also be a modern technologically savvy anarchist, aka a cyberpunk, you can realize that the advent of computer and digital technology means there no longer exist any actually valid reasons, in very many cases, to actually pay for software, and that you should be an advocate of open source software.

So, in summary, Anarchy is not a state of chaos, without rules.

It is a very complex and nuanced political theory of advocacy for a more equitable and more just society.

No serious Anarchist believes that the world would be better if everyone was free to rum around and do literally whatever they want on an individual scale.

What exact kind of society do they propose?

Well unfortunately that differs wildly from Anarchist to Anarchist, but again, as with how Marxist socialism is but a /process/ of transforming from a capitalist society into an as of yet not perfectly defined communism, Anarchism is a /process/ and /method of analysis/ of how to transform into a better society for everyone.

[-] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 20 points 10 months ago

Nice explanation! Thank you. I'm kind of getting the hang of it now. Very glad I asked.

[-] vexikron@lemmy.zip 13 points 10 months ago

No problem.

[-] Chuymatt@kbin.social 11 points 10 months ago

Well, crud. I guess I am much more on the side of anarchists than I thought…

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[-] Papanca@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

Wow, that was a very interesting and informative read, thank you!

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[-] pearable@lemmy.ml 51 points 10 months ago

People tend to think of anarchism as a power vacuum. As soon as a charismatic person comes in they'll start gaining more and more following. But that's not really how it works. Anarchy is about filling that vacuum with everyone. If a decision needs to be made you bring in everyone the situation effects to make it. You start at the level of a household to neighborhood to watershed to biosphere. A charismatic wanabe tyrant will be frustrated every step they take towards getting more power.

Anarchists develop structures and agreements that discourage concentration of power. They enable people to guide their own lives and improve their communities. When violence occurs, when agreements are broken the community decided what is too be done.

All that assumes you're already there. One of the primary differences between anarchists and MLMs (Marxist Leninist Maoists) isn't necessarily their longest term goals, it's the means by which they reach them. MLMs believe that they must use the state, capitalism, and by extension coercive control in order to reach those goals. That brings the risk of capture and co-option of those structures. They've also accomplished incredible feats of human uplift so I wouldn't say their position is without merit.

Anarchists see the revolution coming about through a unity of means and ends. They create a better society by building it while the old one still stands. Their groups are horizontally organized. They create organizations to replace food production and distribution; and devlop strategies for housing distribution (squatting).

[-] h14h@midwest.social 28 points 10 months ago

Anarchists develop structures and agreements that discourage concentration of power

MLMs believe that they must use the state, capitalism, and by extension coercive control

Are these not different words for the same fundamental concepts?

I fail to see how "the state" and "capitalism" aren't just a more developed form of "structures" and "agreements". And if the community decides punishment is an appropriate response to breaking an "agreement", how is that any different from "coercive control"?

And if you're community gets large enough (say even like a couple hundred people), how are any decisions gonna get made even remotely efficiently?

Feel like you're a hop skip and a jump from a representative democracy. And as soon as bartering becomes too inconvenient, I'm sure a new "agreement" still be made to use some proxy as a form of current and boom now you've got capitalism too.

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[-] mrcleanup@lemmy.world 26 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Isn't that just a liberal social Democratic system for people afraid of the words social and liberal?

Anarchists creating structures and agreements isn't anarchy anymore, its... well... government.

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[-] Subverb@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

Like true Libertarianism, this assumes that people will be perfect, altruistic and cooperative.

They won't be. Eventually (quickly) someone will become a cult of personality or a bully and seize power.

See: America 2016/2024.

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[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 49 points 10 months ago

A lot of political theory is written in the societal equivalent of an airless room with a frictionless floor. It doesn't take into account how humans work within the system, especially bad actors.

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[-] Etterra@lemmy.world 45 points 10 months ago

That's what it turns into. Anarchy is only a stable form of government on paper. Like a lot of things, it falls apart when executed in the real world. Mostly because there will always be people who are jerks.

[-] ZeroNotes@lemmy.world 14 points 10 months ago

The entire point of anarchy is that there is no government lol

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[-] ZeroNotes@lemmy.world 35 points 10 months ago

What most of the replies are missing is that there are several different conceptions of what anarchy and anarchism is, even between so-called anarchists.

Anarchy, when boiled down to most basic component, is the rejection of hierarchy. What constitutes a hierarchy is also a big matter of debate. Every political system is about the guy with the bigger stick making the rules. The difference is who holds the stick (and why). Anarchy is the rejection of the stick. I think it is a disservice to look at anarchy through the same terms as those political systems, because anarchy is not a political system. Anarchy is the rejection of political systems. Anarchy is about the possibility of change. The possibility of freedom.

I can assure you that any so-called anarchists who claim to have a plan for how society will function after the revolution are lying to both you and themselves. There will be no anarchist society after the revolution. A revolution is a fight over the stick. Somebody will be holding it when the dust clears. Anarchy, in truth, is not about the future. It is about the now. It's about the real, existing struggle for a better present instead of the dream of a better future.

It's important to recognize our place in the world. I live in America. My country, right now, is committing genocide. Everybody in this country is responsible for that genocide. Anarchy is about doing something to stop the genocide because I want no responsibility in what is happening. Anarchy is about doing something about the police murdering innocent people on a daily basis because there can be no justification for what is happening. It's about providing food for people who can't feed themselves because people don't have to starve. Anarchy is about doing all of those things even when faced with legal consequences. Anarchy is about protecting people from the guy with the stick. That's why it's not a political system.

Because if it is true that for anarchists there is no difference between theory and action, as soon as the idea of social justice lights up in us, illuminates our brain even for a split second, it will never be able to extinguish itself again. Because no matter what we think we will feel guilty, will feel we are accomplices, accomplices to a process of discrimination, repression, genocide, death, a process we will never be able to feel detached from again. How could we define ourselves revolutionaries and anarchists otherwise? What freedom would we be supporting if we were to give our complicity to the assassins in power?

You see how different and critical the situation is for whoever succeeds, through deep analysis of reality or simply by chance or misfortune, in letting an idea as clear as the idea of justice penetrate their brain? There are many such ideas. For example, the idea of freedom is similar. Anyone who thinks about what freedom actually is even for a moment will never again be able to content themselves by simply doing something to slightly extend the freedom of the situations they are living in. From that moment on they will feel guilty and will try to do something to alleviate their sense of suffering. They will fear they have done wrong by not having done anything till now, and from that moment on their lives will change completely.

(Alfredo M. Bonanno, The Anarchist Tension)

[-] KinNectar@kbin.run 8 points 10 months ago

To build on this, it would be accurate to say that Anarchy is the principle upon which the technologies of Anarchism are built. Rather than a political system, which inherently function through obligation of participation or subjugation, the technologies of anarchism are participatory. That is to say anarchism provides methodologies of engagement between individuals and groups to achieve outcomes without obligation or subjugation which are imposed by the system, replacing those attributes of hierarchy instead with consent, participation, and consensus which are fundamentally voluntary and opt-in in nature.

Another way to say this is that Political Systems are means by which a group forces rules upon individuals, while Anarchism is a set of methods by which individuals can perform actions as groups.

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[-] markr@lemmy.world 34 points 10 months ago

Every now and then Lemmy has an actual discussion like this that gives me hope that it can become more than just an idiotic link aggregator. Thanks!

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[-] DaCrazyJamez@sh.itjust.works 28 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Anarchy, in it's purest sense, is to a system what darkness is to light. Darkness is the absence of light, not a thing in-and-of itself. Anarchy is the lack of an establishment or system, rather than a system in itself.

What this means, in practical application, is that most anarchists are simply opposed to whatever system exists currently. Human nature dictates that SOME system will exist as long as we do, so true anarchy can only exist when there are no longer humans around to perceive it.

In historical context, this almost always means that when anarchy "takes over," what it creates is a "systemic void" which - like any vacuum - quickly gets filled. Usually by the guy with the biggest stick.

[-] zik@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I think this is a common misconception about anarchies - that there's no social control of any kind. If you look at actual real world anarchies like Freetown Christiania in Copenhagen they don't believe in a complete absence of organisation. Far from it - they develop community-based committees which have no actual power in themselves but are used to develop concensus on issues that affect the whole community. So rather than abolishing all rules they're all about human collaboration and concensus.

For instance when hard drugs became a problem in Christiana the residents got together and banned hard drugs. It's not a law as such but everyone's in agreement that if you try to sell hard drugs you'll be ejected.

It's not a perfect place and it's hard to say that their brand of anarchy works well as a system of government. It seems to have been a mixed experience for many people who've lived there. But it's definitely been an interesting social experiment.

There are plenty of documentaries on youtube if you're interested.

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[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 20 points 10 months ago

I mean are you looking for theory or actual anarchist practice?

Because in practice the best anarchism has done is war communism but less organized, less democratic, and less efficient than the communists, and the worst they've done is basically a military dictatorship that accidentally empowered kulaks to do pogroms, and if you ask modern anarchists the takeaways from these programs and what to do better in the future, 9/10 times(being generous) they'll just repeat a "stabbed in the back by tankies" narrative which shows they really haven't learned from their history.

[-] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 9 points 10 months ago

Oh wow. Now we’re getting into interesting waters. I probably need to read a lot.

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

To add a disclaimer, I am specifically talking about the largest and more stable projects, anarchosyndicalism during the Spanish civil war and the free ukrainian state during the Russian Revolution

[-] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 19 points 10 months ago

Organized labor is the biggest stick. If workers organize themselves based on an anarchist basis, they can potentially wield this stick very gracefully to ward off or even preclude the entities that would dominate and exploit them.

The end goal is basically the same as Marxism: a stateless, classless society. It's a fair question as to whether the anarchist route that forgoes an interim worker state is viable.

[-] Pratai@lemmy.world 18 points 10 months ago

Because the moment anarchy starts making rules, it’s no longer anarchy.

[-] nicocool84@sh.itjust.works 16 points 10 months ago

Anarchy is not the absence of rules but the absence of authority.

[-] Rhoeri@lemmy.world 14 points 10 months ago

And without authority to back up the rules- the rules are easily dismissed without consequence. And easily dismissed rules with no consequence is anarchy.

Therefore- rules negate anarchy.

[-] nicocool84@sh.itjust.works 10 points 10 months ago

Anarchists tend to think that fear of the state is not the main reason why we don't murder each other. In other words, following rules that are understood does not require the stick. Anarchists also tend to think that authority mostly enforce rules to maintain itself, and that the common good actually relies on something else.

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[-] Zink@programming.dev 9 points 10 months ago

That sounds like anarchy is the societal equivalent of a radioactive element. It is what it is, until some random amount of time when some shit kicks off and it becomes something else.

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[-] Tolookah@discuss.tchncs.de 16 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I'm not an expert, nor do I claim to be even moderately smart about things, but I would think anarchy devolves to other labels once there's a bigger stick being used.

Edit: it might be a dictatorship, or a monarchy if the stick is jewel encrusted

[-] Carighan@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago

Yes, anarchy is an interrim state in which no power mechanic has yet taken hold. But naturally it will, in one way or another.

[-] janonymous@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago

That is a misconception. Anarchism is a equal distribution of power among all participants. This will not change "naturally". It can be changed by either efforts from within to establish a single individual or group as a ruler over the rest, or by outside forces. Neither I would classify as happening just naturally.

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[-] bartolomeo@suppo.fi 14 points 10 months ago

This is a great question and there are a lot of good answers from people much better read than me, but I'd like to throw in that anarchy is the fact of life. Nobody has authority over anyone else unless that authority is given to them by the person. Authority over someone requires consent from the person (I'm talking about between 2 adults, not like authority over your kids). Yes, pointing a gun at someone's head is an excellent way to get their consent to have authority over them. So in any form of government, the power lies in those who give consent for the government to have authority and validity a.k.a. "the people". Normally this consent is extracted unwillingly through either threats of violence or some kind of hypnosis. It would be cool though to live in a society where citizens willingly and well-informedly (is that a word? I don't give you authority to tell me which are words and which aren't) give authority to a government to manage society so people can focus on living well in a sustainable, equitable, and peaceful system.

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[-] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 10 months ago

My impression from talking to and reading stuff by anarchists is that the idea is for culture to serve in the place of sticks and rules. As for the mechanics of how this works, what such a culture would need to achieve to succeed and how it could do so, frankly most of them seem to take it on faith that this will be the easy part and naturally fall into place as soon as their oppressors are no longer mucking things up.

Which is a shame because I think it could be totally plausible and worth seeking, if you worked through the game theory and sustainability-over-time issues, despite being a monumental challenge and being about something as crudely understood as collective psychology. Human society is a system, and systems can be designed lots of different ways. It could be possible to have a culture that is powerful or clever enough to allow for a large population to function without a controlling state beating people into line.

Not directly related to this comment but I also want to mention and recommend the book The Disposessed by Ursula K. Le Guin, really thoughtful novel about anarchism.

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[-] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 13 points 10 months ago

Anarchy means nobody is in charge. As soon as somebody with a big stick says they’re in charge it stops being anarchy.

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[-] theywilleatthestars@lemmy.world 12 points 10 months ago

Because that's called despotism, which anarchists historically oppose.

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[-] weeeeum@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

It basically is that. People WANT organization and rules, that's how humans evolved. By working together you become much more efficient. This is why countries form and why nearly any inhabited land has A government. Of course there is always one willing to be leader.

Even with the countries themselves, globalisation has prevented rogue states from doing whatever they want and a clear world order has formed.

Other than civil wars there are no real representations of anarchy, let alone "peaceful" or "utopian".

[-] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 10 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

My take on anarchism is that it's valuable as a criticism of any form of social organization, but not valuable as its own form of organization. I would never vote for an anarchist or join an anarchist movement because I don't want to put criticism first. Something must exist before it can be criticized. But anarchists offer truly great insight into out social structures

[-] 0xtero@beehaw.org 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

In a "pure", transformed anarchistic society the large majority of people would subscribe to the idea of classless, stateless society where people act on their own responsibility or through voluntary associations and seek to reduce or even end violence and oppression. In such society only the minority would be willing to wield the big sticks of oppression.

Also in such society, the majority would obviously rise up against such attempts at pure fascism. Even though the basic ideology of anarchism is rooted in pacifism and non-violence, it doesn't mean anarchistic societies would simply give up the their ideology, roll on their back and surrender when faced with violence.

Also, I personally believe, that the way to the transformation from our current society to anarchism is only possible through means of revolution - and revolutions are very seldomly non-violent.

I know you didn't want to read long manifestos, but this is probably worth a read: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-how-nonviolence-protects-the-state

The real answer is of course far more nuanced than this post, but I tried to keep it short and readable

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