I wonder how Israeli historians will remember this. Will they take take position of Germany and grow or US and justify all the shit because "we had to do it, we're great"
They will deny it. They already making sure to get rid of all journalists and refuse visa for new one.
Is that even possible with amount of records there are? They can kinda delay and twist the truth for a while but not for long.
Doesn't Turkey still deny they ever did a genocide, too?
Yup. There's still an outcry any time a foreign parliament declares an acknowledgement of the fact that there was such a thing as the Armenian genocide.
I just hope records are still being maintained. Digital records are fragile if not stored in a cloud.
They're already saying “we had to do it, we’re great”. It'll take some government toppling before that tune changes.
History and how it went is written by the winners not losers. Germany and the US took those stances because of who lost and who won. As long as israel „wins“ (in whatever definition) it will write its history as a winner.
As the rate of Palestinian children killed by Israel to Israelis killed by Hamas surpasses the infamous 10-to-1 of Nazi killings of random villagers in Occupied France in reprisal for German deaths at the hands of the French Resistance, the pro-Israel propagandists are still calling Israeli actions as "defense".
This is quite consistent with the last couple of decades of Israeli propaganda: Palestinians and even Arabs in general are always portrayed as "violent" (not Hamas or Hezbullah being violent, rather the entire etnical group is painted as "violent") and follows the playbook from Goebbels and the one generally used by Fascists (not just Nazis, though in terms of rabid racism, the Nazi kind of Fascism is the closest one to the what's voiced and the acts of the Israeli leadership and their military) were the target etnicity is painted as "violent" and "attacking us", thus justifying mass murder as "defense" or "protecting ourselves".
I expect the history they write will be anchored on that fantasy of "defense", whitewashing the extreme disproportion in deaths -most of which civilians - that would otherwise make it painfully obvious that what's being done is far beyond "defense", beyond even the racist kind of "reprisals" (racist because all Palestinians are made to pay for the acts of the tiny fraction of them which is Hamas) and into "ethnic cleansing" territory.
Move along. No genocide to see here.
Betcha there are people already arguing that it can't be genocide if you only kill 1% of the population.
They are using it as an opportunity to carry out the pogrom they always wanted to. It’s clear now that the Hamas attack is exactly what Israel wanted.
What a fucking disaster. Netanyahu and Hamas have been quite the blight on mankind
Forgive my ignorance, but I was always wondering why is it such a faux pau to show support to Palestine? From how I understand it, and that may be wrong, hence the question, the regular Palestinian people are occupied not only by Israel on the outside, but also by a terrorist group, HAMAS, at home. Which is basically a dictatorship, thats not afraid to openly use terror tactics. It's a lose-lose situation, and the only thing you can do is hope youre not going to be one of the 1/100 that dies to a random strike.
When there are innocent people in a situation like that, the least we can do is show them some support.
Or do majority of people in Palestine actually support HAMAS and the war? I feel like in missing something, because the backslash to people who show an ounce of support for Palestine is massive, and I don't really get why. I just want regular people who aren't terrorists to live at peace :(
It's manufactured. The US government unquestionably supports Israel and doesn't wanna threaten their ~~remote military base~~ relationship, so they act to silence dissidents and quench protests, such as by trying to equate criticism of Israel's government with antisemitism.
Or do majority of people in Palestine actually support HAMAS and the war?
Idk if the majority support Hamas specifically, but most Palestinians support resistance fighters, including Hamas, mostly because peaceful diplomacy with Israel has proven to be impossible.
Off course I'd rather live under, and support the dictator terrorists if my other option was genocidal aparthied nazis who force me to live deprived from all freedoms like a caged animal and regularly get bombed.
Yes Hamas is a bad terrorist dictatorship, but they did not kill 1 in every 100 Gazan, and they are only in power because they live in an open-air prison and regularly get bombed by an occupier controlling their food, water, and electricity and keeping them like caged animal.
Is it really a faux-pas? It probably depends on where you live and the people you live amongst. Where I live, it seems like only the extreme right (the successors of the people who helped the nazi's genocide the Jews) + orthodox Jews support Israel unequivocally. Most others don't see it as black and white and still consider Palestinians as humans who need hope and prospects, which they're obviously not getting under Israeli occupation.
The majority of Palestinians in Palestine apparently support Hamas, but it's likely that they would not be supporting Hamas if Israel had been acting in good faith and not been slowly (a lot faster now obviously, but they were going slowly for years) ethnically cleansing them from Palestine. It's kinda a chicken and egg situation.
If Rabin had not been murdered by an extremist israeli in 1995, there might have been peace now in those lands, but instead Israel is now being lead by those extremists and they aren't interested in peace or co-existence.
Coincidentally, there was a recent media event in my country event where a celebrity publicly displayed support for Palestinians.
She had this to say: "Raising a Palestinian flag does NOT mean that I support Hamas or that I hate Jews or that I am okay with innocent civilians - wherever they live - being killed. It means that I want all wars and all genocides to end." https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/01/08/laura-tesoro-palestijnse-vlag/
Public reactions (in dutch): https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20240107_96484050 The minister Jan Jambon was in his youth a member of the local fascist party and is pretty vocal that he would like his current (more mainstream) party to collaborate in the future with that fascist party. So that he thinks that it is a "faux-pas" to express support for Palestinians, does not surprise me in the least.
Edited because of grammar.
I mean it is a fact that Hamas has a lot of support at home. They have won elections. This is because they build schools and deliver services at home, and take a defiant stand against Israel. However this all gets collapsed to “Palestinians support terrorism” by the disingenuous, trusting everyone in Gaza with terrorism. I’m NOT saying this is valid - just pointing out how it comes about.
I think the basic reasoning is some form of:
"If you support Palestina, you are against Israel. And you can't be against Israel, because then you are an anti-semite and that means you support Hitler."
It's mainly prevelant in western countries that historically support Israel. I do think a big part of that is some historical shame/feeling the Jewish people are owed something, given the genocide they had to endure in WW2. And of course a touch of geopolitics. And right wing politicians using Israel as a way to position themselves (I guess they hate Muslims more than Jews?).
I fear when the world will start to ignore Palestine again
It's already happening.
What percent of Americans died in the 9/11 attacks? How many 9/11s is this?
Since no one answered your question. I'll assume you were just curious about the numbers. It's easy enough to answer.
Around 23k civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israel since October 7th. On 9/11 2001, around 2.6k were killed in those attacks. So, around 8.8 “worth” of 9/11s.
Given 94 days since October 7th, it would be a “9/11 amount of civilian casualties” every 10.6 days.
Or perhaps:
A “Hamas October 7th” every 5 days. For over 3 months straight.
If you do what Israel was doing, you'd need to scale it on per capita basis. So America is about 330 million and the population of Gaza is about 2.3 million. So the population of America is 140 times the size of Gaza. So 1232 or so 9/11's.
Yet Palestinian support for the Hamas terrorists just continues to grow. So weird thinking it's 2024, and they're having a fucking religious war over there.
That’s because they believe that Hamas’s attack on Oct 7 was in retaliation for Israel’s prior actions while Israel is using Oct 7 to retaliate against all of Palestine. Palestinians are going to support the side that is not bombing them and that they believe is standing up to the persecution they’ve experienced up until and including now.
"Ukraine: It’s Not ‘Retaliation’ When You’re Fighting for National Survival"
I just saw this title on lemmy underneath this post.
You'd have to be a fucking moron to believe that bombing Palestinian civilians would make them support Hamas less.
We already went over this in WW2. Mass murdering civilians doesn't break them, it actually increases their resolve. It's obvious Israel doesn't give a shit about destroying Hamas since they're choosing to ignore 80 years of lessons in counterinsurgency warfare.
If someone kills your wife, you aren't going to think "well gee maybe I should get along with her murderers now". You're going to look for revenge or justice, and the only people offering anything close to that in Palestine are Hamas.
This is to be expected. The past ~20 years has been very bad for diplomacy with Israel. When it Israel actually engages in diplomacy with it's Palestinian population the population Hamas plummets.
You have to realize. They are literally idiots.
They're in prison, being fed propaganda with no future, too many kids, too many problems no education. It's hardly their choice unfortunately.
We need to feel pity not contempt.
I agree with you, with the exception that Palestinians are actually known for being a well-educated population.
What is Israel supposed to do? I'm genuinely asking. I'm not implying what they have done is what should've happened but I'm genuinely puzzled what the imagined alternative would have been. You don't react to Hamas's attack by packing up your shit and leaving. You don't respond to it by asking what your enemy would like you to do differently so that this doesn't happen again. You retaliate. It's blatantly obvious that's what you do especially since they have a superior military. How do you retaliate? That is the question I'd like answered. What is a reasonable and justifiable retaliation to their act?
If you catch a kid throwing rocks at windows you don't shoot them or punch them in the face but you don't pat them on the head either and give them candy. There are better and worse ways to deal with it here.
You legitimately target Hamas with actual precision attacks. If they're hiding under a hospital, you go down there and deal with them, you don't bomb the fucking hospital.
How do you retaliate? That is the question I’d like answered. What is a reasonable and justifiable retaliation to their act?
Retaliation is in the first place a wrong answer, because Hamas's whole existence is retaliation to Israel's aggression against Palestinians.
Genocide Joe going full steam ahead with this through the election. Let's see how well the Democrats can do winning the Nazi vote.
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