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ban on the “despicable” practice of surrogate motherhood.
Wasn't Mary technically a surrogate?
Consistency isn't exactly a strong suit for religion over time
Or even from one page to the next.
Oh snap
I don’t think so, no. She didn’t carry the baby for another person and Jesus was of her DNA. She was supposedly made pregnant by god rather than another human (some folks wonder if god actually came down and fucked her or just placed a baby in her womb, which I think is an interesting thing to think about). Either way, surrogacy generally means the woman carries a child that doesn’t have her DNA, but Christian theology, across denominations and sects, all seem to agree he was fully human which would come from Mary.
Generally it's surrogacy even if the baby has their DNA. If two identical twins could theoretically carry the other's baby as a surrogate despite having the same DNA.
Either God raped her or God gave her IVF against her knowledge. Because she raised the child as her own regardless and it's not like they could DNA test.
Religion is fucking stupid
I am no religious expert, but going by what I remember from church, Jesus was sent here for all of us, so wouldn't that make the Virgin Mary basically a surrogate?
Technically, but remember that Mary didn't consent or even know what was happening. Jesus was a rape baby...
@Bonehead Luke 1:38 "'I am the Lord’s servant, Mary answered. 'May your word to me be fulfilled.' Then the angel left her." / Luke 1:46-48 "And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed,"
Does not sound like she didn't know what was going on, or that she didn't consent...
She was like 13. The best age to get boned by Christianity
Mo and Aisha at 9 - makes me think fundie abrahamic religions don't care as much about age of consent.
So you're just going to accept the story from some dude that wrote it years later?
Decades later by known liars.
She was already pregnant at that point.
Luke rewrote Matthew and cleaned it up. Here is what Matt wrote
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[d]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
Matthew chapter 1:18-19
No consent given.
Doesn't that just claim that Joseph was unaware of her pregnancy?
At the moment of it later he knew
Jesus was sent here for all of us
Sure let's check the Bible
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Mark 13:10-11
Uh oh. It seems like Jesus wasnt sent for everyone only for a small group of loyal followers from one ethnic group.
If you are going to quote me, you should start with the beginning where I said "I am no religious expert".
“Commercializing pregnancy”
Yeah, allowing my friend living with lupus to have a healthy biological child. They treated the surrogate as a member of the family, even long after the birth. Fuck you, pope.
The entire concept of surrogacy started exactly as a means for wealthy couples to have children without the need for the woman to "ruin" her body with a pregnancy.
The example you cite is, at best, an exception not the norm.
There is no shame in adopting or never having children, both of which are better options than to subject another human being to carry a child they will not raise or keep contact.
Oh so your examples are how it “started” and mine are “exceptions” therefore you win. Whatever.
That is not how a conversation is handled.
You voice your opinion, I voice mine, then we keep comparing ideas in order to advance the others understanding of it.
I did not attack you, I pointed issues to your statement and added my own counter points.
I also did not attack you, I just pointed out the emptiness of your argument.
Fine. Shall we retry or leave it as is?
Are you two substantially disagreeing?
When surrogacy is merely a luxury to spare the rich mother the discomforts of bearing a child, it can be bad, and for other reasons such as health and infertility it’s totally fine?
Yeah I’m disagreeing that it can “be bad.”
This is a reproductive technology. I’m not going to sit here and judge women for how they use it. I’ve witnessed pregnancies all the way through and I’M. NOT. JUDGING. PERIOD.
You know what it’s like? To sit here and fie upon slovenly rich bitches who use this reproductive technology for their own comfort because they’re lazy and immoral? It’s about a hair’s breadth away from the way people demonize women who avail themselves of abortions for being “sluts who don’t want to deal with the consequences of their actions.”
I won’t go anywhere near that shit.
As far as I can see, I’m the only one here who knows anyone who’s used surrogacy, and it was for a legit health reason. I have ZERO patience to listen to anyone’s internet armchair judgery, while they even remotely entertain the idea that we should take this reproductive technology away because of how we think people are using it.
Nope. Nope to the nope. Fuck ALL of that.
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Why didn't they just adopt? There's 100k+ children waiting to be adopted right now in the US. Why go through all the trouble and effort of surrogacy just to have a biological child? Seems weird to me.
Because adoption isn't as easy as it sounds. A couple friends of ours started the process 5 or 6 years ago and weren't having any luck (even after spending tens of thousands of dollars on the process) and weren't having success so they asked someone we know to be a surrogate for them in 2019 and had their son in 2020. It wasn't until literally two weeks ago that they finally got placed with their adopted child from several states away from a young pregnant woman who didn't want to keep the baby. The adoption process costed them significantly more than the surrogacy. They could afford it because one is a physician but this highlights how difficult it is unless you want to adopt an older child who most likely has behavioral issues after being forcefully removed from a bad situation.
It sounds like your buddies specifically wanted a newborn which led to the difficulty. Why? A three, four, or five year old doesn't meet their standards?
Why do you get to put your standards on them?
There's 8 billion people in the world and most of them are suffering. Choosing to bring another person into this world for pure vanity is one of the most selfish acts a person can do, as it means that another child will go unloved.
I addressed that at the end of my comment. They were fostering (with plans to adopt) a child around that age for a while who still received visits from her mom. The mother, who had her custody removed by the state, persuaded the girl to make false accusations against our friends in order to torpedo the adoption process.
Most of those 100k kids waiting to be adopted are older kids. A lot of people want to start with an infant. Not everyone is equipped to adopt a teenager who has been in foster care for years. Then there are people who want bio kids.
Source? My buddy adopted last year and had no problem finding an infant for adoption.
Your one friend != all experiences.
The average age of a child in foster care is more than 8 years old, and there are slightly more boys than girls.
They got their source from: https://www.acf.hhs.gov/cb/research-data-technology/statistics-research/afcars
"Unborn child must be protected and not suppressed or turned into an object of trafficking".
Until he is born that is, right?
Catholic Church saying "look over there that's terrible" whilst not doing much about the rape and abuse within its own backyard.
Religion once again tackling the important issues...
Jesus was born to a surrogate mother.
It is interesting to see the Pope using secular arguments instead of simply saying God won't approve (which is completely valid from a religious perspective). The invocation of God in any serious opinion is silly, and now even religious leaders know that.
Religion is dogshit
I tend to agree. But surrogacy is humab trafficking
That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read.
You figure he'd be on board with creating more kids for Catholic priest to rape and molest.
Pope Francis can Sur-a-get deez nuts in his mouth.
Oh wait.. He might like that..
This is the best summary I could come up with:
ROME (AP) — Pope Francis called Monday for a universal ban on the “despicable” practice of surrogate motherhood, as he included the “commercialization” of pregnancy in an annual speech listing threats to global peace and human dignity.
In a foreign policy address to ambassadors accredited to the Holy See, Francis lamented that 2024 had dawned at a time in history in which peace is “increasingly threatened, weakened and in some part lost.”
“I consider despicable the practice of so-called surrogate motherhood, which represents a grave violation of the dignity of the woman and the child, based on the exploitation of situations of the mother’s material needs,” he said.
Francis has previously voiced the Catholic Church’s opposition to what he has called “uterus for rent,” and some European countries prohibit it, including Spain and Italy.
It marked an unusual break with Francis’ usual tendency to spare Moscow direct, public blame for the invasion when expressing solidarity with the Ukrainian people.
He called for an immediate cease-fire, including in Lebanon, the liberation of hostages held in Gaza, and reiterated the Holy See’s position seeking a two-state solution for Israel and the Palestinians and an internationally guaranteed special status for Jerusalem.
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this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2024
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