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submitted 1 year ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to c/news@lemmy.world
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[-] stoy@lemmy.zip 95 points 1 year ago

I saw a documentary about a guy trying to find a "humane" execution method, he came to the conclusion that suffocation with nitrogen gas probably was the least bad.

It doesn't trigger a feeling of panic as CO2 poisoning does, you simply drift away in a hypoxic high filled with mild confusion without the dread.

People on both sides of the death penalty issue thought is was barbaric, proponents of the death penalty thought it was wrong to remove the suffering from the person, they felt it would be wrong to let say a serial killer just drift away in a high, while opponents of the death penalty felt it was barbaric as it would lessen the felt impact of taking a life and might cause governments to reinstate the death penalty.

It was an interesting documentary...

[-] Sasha 53 points 1 year ago

That was one of Louis Theroux's phenomenal docos.

He was super confused at the end when he was met with "but we want to hurt them" it was a bit funny how jarring it was, but also really sad.

[-] stoy@lemmy.zip 14 points 1 year ago

I think I found the one I saw, it was this BBC Horizon documentary:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/executions/

https://imdb.com/title/tt1228865/

I am sure I am on a list now for googling

horizon how to kill a human being

Eh, who am I kidding, everyone is on whatever lists the powers that be decide they want us on....

[-] PlasmaDistortion@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

Synopsis:

Former Conservative MP, Michael Portillo pushes his body to the brink of death in an investigation into the science of execution.

As the American Supreme Court examines whether the lethal injection is causing prisoners to die in unnecessary pain Michael sets out to find a solution which is fundamentally humane. To do so he examines the key methods of execution available today: he discovers why convicts can catch on fire in the electric chair, learns how easy it is to botch a hanging and inhales a noxious gas to experience first hand the terror of the gas chamber.

Armed with some startling evidence Michael considers a completely new approach. Will it be the answer? There is only one way of finding out - to experience it himself.

[-] Sasha 2 points 1 year ago

Oh wow that looks interesting, I'll have to have a watch!

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago

If done right, sure.

Alabama tried to kill the person first in line already with lethal injection and failed, so the odds of them doing nitrogen gas right is pretty fucking slim.

[-] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 5 points 1 year ago

They'd have to fuck it up to a truly astonishing degree for it to be anywhere near as bad as a failed execution using the other methods currently in use. Like maybe use chlorine gas instead of nitrogen.

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

They just need to not have good seals on the mask so non-nitrogen air leaks in which would give the same symptoms as slow suffocation.

Note that they keep fucking up to an astonishing degree, so it is likely to happen with any method they try.

[-] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

No. It would either work more slowly or it wouldn't work. There would be no pain.

The feeling of suffocation comes from a buildup of CO2 in the body, not from a lack of oxygen.

Since regular air is pretty close to 80/20 nitrogen and oxygen, simply removing the oxygen results in a painless, odorless death.

It's actually a concern for people using rebreathers. If the CO2 scrubber keeps working but new oxygen isn't introduced into the system, the diver will go from feeling fine to passing out without ever knowing it.

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[-] shalafi@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

would give the same symptoms as slow suffocation

If you don't understand the science, please STFU.

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[-] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

I understand the arguments put forth, so how about a band saw?

[-] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I feel divided on this topic.

[-] Agent641@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Im in two minds about it.

I’m personally a fan of the James Bond’esque “Strap them to a Saint Andrew’s cross and slowly cut them in half with a burning laser” method.

[-] Daxtron2@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago

Starting from the crotch, going up

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[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

So both sides just wanted some blood eagle shit

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[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Just wrong. You only drift off if you are unaware that you are suffocating! The person being executed is fully aware that they are dying via suffocation. That person is going to be in full panic mode trying to get as much air into their lungs as possible.

[-] Nollij@sopuli.xyz 15 points 1 year ago

Pure nitrogen gas is a significant industrial hazard for the reasons you stated. There is sure to be an element of panic since they are aware that they are being executed. That is going to be true whether the execution is being done via hypoxia, injection, or firing squad.

I suppose it depends on your exact definition of suffocating. You will absolutely be able to take full, satisfying breaths the entire time. If you do not tell them when the gas is turned on, even knowing that it's coming, they would be unlikely to even notice.

While there are no clinical studies (for obvious reasons), there is footage of industrial accidents. It seems that people succumb VERY quickly, possibly on their first full breath.

Most debates around execution methods are about the method itself. They typically exclude the morality and cruelty of the idea of a death penalty in general. I don't think this one can be separated, though. The concern is that it's untested for executions, but the only way to test it is to use it for executions. There is ample evidence of its use on livestock, but this is of limited value for humans.

As a side note, no medical doctors can be involved with executions. It's a direct violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

[-] LowtierComputer@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago
[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

How do you source that? If people actually cared about quick and painless we'd just go back to beheadings. But it's not for the person being executed. It's so people can feel good about themselves when it's done.

[-] LowtierComputer@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Have you experienced the effects of nitrogen? I'm asking where you got that info from. There are videos of the use of nitrogen on animals.

Those videos do not match what you are describing.

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Well I have seen someone nearly die from it and according to him he was just tired and spacing out.

[-] LowtierComputer@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Same. Diving tank fill accident near Wilmington, NC. Just like CO, they had basically no idea. Not even the headache that CO gives you.

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

One night working late a coworker of mine nearly went that way. He was just tired and said he was spacing out. Meanwhile the alarms were blaring.

[-] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

Man if I were the guy this was first being tested on I would probably try and fuck it up in the worst way possible just to screw with the people executing me.

Like as soon as the gas turns on start screaming my ass off like they mixed up nitrogen gas with acid gas instead and produced the worst pain ever until I finally passed out.

[-] veroxii@aussie.zone 2 points 1 year ago

Pretty sure I know which one you're talking about. Was British... BBC or something... But is on YouTube.

I remember the scene where he is in a hypoxic state himself in a chamber and he needs to press a big red button or he dies. They kept telling him "press the button or you die" and he was just so high and goofy laughing about it and not pressing the button.

Very interesting show as you say.

[-] FuglyDuck@lemmy.world 53 points 1 year ago

So before people freak out too much- and yes, executions shouldn’t be a thing (I personally make a few exceptions… but I’m an asshole…) let’s take a moment and realize that nitrogen hypoxia is the method used in suicide pods

While yeah, the moments before it happen are probably terrifying for the condemned- and that probably is where they’re getting “torture” from… it’s far less painful and awful a way to go… than lethal injection or electric chairs or old-school gas chambers;

[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

The mental state of the person is the difference. One person has willingly placed themselves in the suicide pod, while the other is likely to fight for air. If we're going to execute people we shouldn't be pacifying with that actually means.

[-] BarrelAgedBoredom@lemm.ee 15 points 1 year ago

So people on death row should suffer from more cruel methods? They should run the risk of botched executions from people that received no training? Nitrogen is safe and effective. Put a mask on, open the tank. That's it. Do we need to complicate the process? Would that make it better in your eyes? If we're going to execute people (which we fucking shouldn't) why do we have to make it worse?

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[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

while the other is likely to fight for air.

The body doesn't actually sense the amount of oxygen in your blood. Instead, there's assorted ways it detects elevated levels of CO2.

That works great when you're e.g. swimming under water or are holding your breath. Low oxygen naturally coincides with excess CO2.

But it's dangerous in low oxygen environments. CO2 doesn't build up, so you don't sense that you're running low on oxygen.

People die accidentally from inert gas asphyxiation. It's sneaky like that.

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[-] LufyCZ@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is honestly stupid.

They spent insane amount of cash to kill the guy, yet even then they keep failing to do just that.

Either just give him the heavily tested (on animals) and scientifically supported nitrogen, if you really need to kill him that bad or just send him to a damn prison and forget about him.

[-] wahming@monyet.cc 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

? They ARE giving him the nitrogen. I'm guessing these experts didn't want to jump into the Israel fight so found something else to focus on.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Or these experts have no expertise on Israel, so they are smart enough not to do that as experts.

[-] wahming@monyet.cc 2 points 1 year ago

I can't think of a more current hotbed for torture than Israel or Russia at the moment, can you?

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Only one of the four experts' area of expertise involved torture.

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[-] LufyCZ@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Issue is, this isn't the first time I'm reading about someone complaining about the execution method.

The guy's lawyers were raising complaints about it as well, most likely to try to postpone the execution.

Every day the guy's alive costs the state money, it costs the time of his lawyers, judges and these "experts" and for what? To postpone his death a couple months? To have him get an arguably more painful and error-prone executiom method?

It's just a waste of resources. Either kill him if they must or stash him away for the rest of his life in a high security prison, this circus is unproductive for all parties involved.

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[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

The primary point is that some states have not yet managed to arrive in the 20th century and abandon capital punishment altogether. And yes, I meant 20th century, not 21st.

The method of killing people is just a measurement of how politically retarded they are.

[-] milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 20 points 1 year ago

... Alabama is now asking for volunteers to try it out on first. UN experts are yet to sign up.

[-] Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

Alabama is the trailer park of the US

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[-] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is a dilemma.


On the merits of nitrogen hypoxia as a method of execution:
Nitrogen hypoxia is one of the most peaceful, least painful deaths available, and the concerns of a tortuous death are pretty unrealistic.

The air we breathe is 80% nitrogen 20% oxygen, so the body has no adverse reaction to nitrogen. Remove the oxygen, so the person breathes 100% nitrogen 0% oxygen, and the air will feel normal, there is no feeling of suffocation or shortness of breath. However without oxygen one will lose consciousness within a minute or two, and be dead in 5-10 minutes.

For reference, airplanes are pressurized at high altitudes because the less dense air contains fewer molecules of oxygen per lung volume. Past about 11,000' above sea level, there's not enough oxygen in the air to sustain full consciousness. Here's a video of that- the alarm is going off in that guy's airplane because the pressurization system failed. But in an oxygen-deprived state, he happily reports to the controller with a smile that he's totally unable to control his aircraft but other than that everything is peachy. You'll note he is totally unbothered by his condition.
When the controller orders him to descend to 11,000 feet, air density increases, his brain starts working normally again, and he starts making coherent radio calls.

The point of this isn't to be funny, it's to illustrate that in a hypoxic state he was totally calm and happy and not in any distress at all, even though his aircraft was out of control. So if anything, nitrogen hypoxia might be the most peaceful way to die, as in their final moments the condemned may be less concerned about the fact that they are being executed.

The only possible 'botch' I can imagine, is if either the condemned isn't breathing 100% nitrogen, or the nitrogen is shut off before breathing stops, that could leave the condemned in a state of hypoxic brain damage. That could leave him a vegetable, or alive and awake but brain damaged (low IQ, cognitive problems, etc). That's the sort of state most places consider 'unfit to stand trial' and he gets remanded to a care facility probably for life. And that would require a pretty bad botching to create that situation.


But I still hope the complaint stalls things:
On the other hand, I think execution is a barbaric punishment, and I think we should do all we can to abolish it anywhere it still exists. So I support this group, even though their concerns are unscientific to the point of ridicule.

I also suspect I'm very much not alone here. I'm not a doctor, but I am a private pilot and a scuba diver, so I understand what a body needs in terms of breathing gas a bit more than average. I know for a fact I could write a totally bulletproof execution protocol that would provide a reliable, quick, humane, pain-free death. But if I was asked to, I'd refuse, even if it meant giving the condemned a less painful death. Because if such a protocol existed, if the legal system as a whole recognized nitrogen hypoxia as a quick and painless method of execution, that then removes a hurdle for pro-death-penalty states to start executing people.
I suspect I'm not alone because the knowledge I have is far from uncommon. Ask any pilot or astronaut or person involved with breathing gas systems and they'll tell you the same thing. Yet, few if any seem to be stepping up to 'solve' the problem of a humane execution protocol.

Gives me hope for the future of humanity.

[-] pixeltree@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I haven't and won't make a plan but have often thought to myself that if I ever do kill myself that's how I'm gonna do it. Literally just like falling asleep. I'd much much much rather take that than lethal injection

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

That's the way I am going to most likely go. One day get some medical test result that doesn't look good, login remotely to one of the many industrial sites I help manage, set off an alarm for the weekend, come in to the nitrogen storage room, replace the gasket on a valve with a worn out one, then go to sleep for the last time.

Family gets a huge out of court settlement and I don't spend months of pointless medical torture.

[-] RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Any unanamed "gas" in the headline will be converted to "farts" in the mind of the reader.

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[-] Agent641@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

'Well, we gon' try it!'

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this post was submitted on 04 Jan 2024
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