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submitted 11 months ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 102 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Haven't hard drives been cheaper per storage amount than SSDs forever? The problem was always that they were slow. I think tape may still be cheaper per storage amount than hard drives, but the speed is abysmal.

Edit: yeah looks like tape is 3x to 4x cheaper than hard drives https://corodata.com/tape-backups-still-used-today

[-] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 57 points 11 months ago

Tape will be around until something better for archival purposes comes around

It lasts significantly longer sitting on the shelf than HDD or SSD by far

I doubt it’s being used for anything other than backups and archiving though

[-] monotremata@kbin.social 36 points 11 months ago

It's also used for sending huge amounts of data long distances. "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." That's usually attributed to Andrew S. Tanenbaum, but wikipedia follows that with "other alleged speakers include..." so take that with a grain of salt. They do note that the first problem in his book on computer networks asks students to calculate the throughput of a Saint Bernard carrying floppy disks.

[-] blackluster117@possumpat.io 25 points 11 months ago

Do we assume the Saint Bernard is spherical and ignores air resistance?

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 17 points 11 months ago

No, it's for real. The bandwidth of sending a truckload of disks to a destination can get to literally Tbps speeds. Latency is a different problem

[-] blackluster117@possumpat.io 17 points 11 months ago

Oh, I'm aware. Just making a tongue in cheek physics joke since they said he put that problem in a textbook.

[-] fishos@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

Amazon is using trucks to ship hard drives for the largest data transfers. It's more efficient than doing it over internet. They also offer a service where they will put the data you want in a drive, mail it to you, and after you're done, you send the drive back.

https://aws.amazon.com/snowball/

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[-] dhorse@lemmy.world 32 points 11 months ago

It's criminal that some computers are still sold with mechanical hard drives, but I will still be using them in NAS for years to come. The right technology for the right job.

[-] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

I only use them in my NAS because I keep ending up with spare ones.

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[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago

Slow is relative.

Are you trying to compile 1GB worth of code or load into memory 4GB of game at startup: absolutelly, they're slow.

Are you serving a compressed 1080p video file from your NAS to your media player over 100Mb/s ethernet: they're more than fast enough. (Or to put things another way, trying to fit your home collection of media files on SSDs in yout NAS is probably not so smart as you can get almost 10x the storage for the same price and the bottleneck in that system isn't the HDD)

You're not going to put a massive production database of a performance criticial system on an HDD but storing "just in case" in one your historic of RAW images files after you've processed them is probably the smart thing to do.

[-] lemmyvore@feddit.nl 9 points 11 months ago

Tapes themselves are cheaper but there's also the upfront cost of the tape drive (we're talking thousands).

[-] umbraroze@kbin.social 11 points 11 months ago

And that there is the real crime. It's a real shame no one's making a tape drive at the consumer market price point. Tapes are a hell of a lot more convenient for backups and archival than the giant weird pile of storage formats we've seen over years.

[-] lemmyvore@feddit.nl 6 points 11 months ago

The average consumer can make do with Blu Ray.

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[-] Fermion@feddit.nl 5 points 11 months ago

Wendel from level 1 techs really likes the multi actuator spinning rust drives. You still wouldn't use them for a boot drive, but they're fast enough to saturate a sata connection, while still being much more dense than ssds. They can achieve 500MB/s sequential speeds, so they're plenty fast for large file access. Most consumers should be using SSD's but if you're dealing with more than a couple terabytes, the best solution isn't as straightforward.

[-] Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

For me, reliability is now the bottleneck.

So many HDs are crapping out after about 5 years. Not saying SSDs are better, but I haven't used any for storage. But it's starting to feel like a subscription plan as I'm rotating hard drives in my server nearly every year now since 2018.

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[-] qupada@kbin.social 60 points 11 months ago

We've done this exercise recently for multi-petabyte enterprise storage systems.

Not going to name brands, but in both cases this is usable (after RAID and hot spares) capacity, in a high-availability (multi-controller / cluster) system, including vendor support and power/cooling costs, but (because we run our own datacenter) not counting a $/RU cost as a company in a colo would be paying:

  • HDD: ~60TiB/RU, ~150W/RU, ~USD$ 30-35/TB/year
  • Flash: ~250TiB/RU, ~500W/RU, ~USD$ 45-50/TB/year

Note that the total power consumption for ~3.5PB of HDD vs ~5PB of flash is within spitting distance, but the flash system occupies a third of the total rack space doing it.

As this is comparing to QLC flash, the overall system performance (measured in Gbps/TB) is also quite similar, although - despite the QLC - the flash does still have a latency advantage (moreso on reads than writes).

So yeah, no. At <1.5× the per-TB cost for a usable system - the cost of one HDD vs one SSD is quite immaterial here - and at >4× the TB-per-RU density, you'd have to have a really good reason to keep buying HDDs. If lowest-possible-price is that reason, then sure.

Reliability is probably higher too, with >300 HDDs to build that system you're going to expect a few failures.

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[-] Tja@programming.dev 52 points 11 months ago

My 8TB Seagate failed a week ago and I was looking into new drives. The cheapest HDD was around 25 EUR per TB (for the 18TB ones) and the cheapest SSD were under 50 EUR per TB. No idea where this "7 times cheaper" comes, maybe from 2015.

I ended up buying a 4TB Crucial MX500 with 4TB for 208 EUR (barely enough for my data, but with some cleanup it will hold a year for sure).

Not only it's faster, it's smaller (fits in the NUC), it's quieter and it consumes much less electricity. I don't think I will ever buy an HDD ever again. Maybe for surveillance recording?

[-] Zanz@lemmy.world 23 points 11 months ago

Hamr drives and for data center use. Consumer ssds are made very poorly and even premium drives like a Samsung pro won't hold up in a data center environment. Hard drives on the other hand are basically only data center versions now.

[-] unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone 19 points 11 months ago

No idea where this "7 times cheaper" comes

Probably from back when Toshiba was relevant

[-] dishpanman@lemmy.ca 5 points 11 months ago

$200 for a refurbished 20TB drive on Newegg

The new ones were on sale for $270 so around $10-15 per TB. The best I can find is $40-50 per TB for SSD. Certainly not 7times more expensive but more like 3-5.

[-] Alexstarfire@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago

Yea, you can't compare consumer to business. Very different. Article is talking about datacenters, which don't typically rely on consumer grade products.

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[-] ryannathans@aussie.zone 49 points 11 months ago

I bought 18 TB seagate exos x18 drives for about $400 AUD each this year. What price are 18TB SSDs at?

[-] emptiestplace@lemmy.ml 26 points 11 months ago
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[-] guyrocket@kbin.social 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I just bought a microcenter brand 1 TB SSD for less than $50. Can a HDD compete with that on price and read/write speed?

Also recently bought a gaming PC that does not have a HD, only a 1 TB SSD.

I think HDDs day as boot drives is over. Unless they get a lot faster which I think is unlikely.

HDDs are certainly useful for larger amounts of storage, though. Self hosting, data centers, etc.

ETA: I don't think any of the responses read my entire comment. See the LAST SENTENCE in particular, friends.

[-] elscallr@lemmy.world 15 points 11 months ago

My NAS device has 80TB of usable space (6x16TB, raid5). Equivalent would've cost tens of thousands of dollars in drives alone.

Once 16TB SSDs are even available I will probably start migrating them in, but for now mechanical drives it is.

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[-] Thrashy@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The last set of NAS drives I bought for my home server were ~$120 for 8TB, and while random access may not quite measure up, I'd put them up against your $50 Inland white-label drive for sustained R/W any day of the week, especially once the SSD's write cache is saturated. That's not even comparing like-for-like -- consumer hard drives using SMR are quite a bit cheaper than the NAS drives I bought, and enterprise-grade Flash storage costs 2-4 times as much as low-end consumer flash.

There's absolutely still a case to be made for mechanical drives in near-line storage, and that's not likely to change for quite a few years yet.

[-] Vash63@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

Nobody is buying $50 drives for a datacenter. What matters here is how this compares with 16TB+ sizes.

[-] preasket@lemy.lol 7 points 11 months ago

Use HDDs for linear read/write (files) and SSDs for IOPS (databases)

[-] MargotRobbie@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Besides speed, the main problem of spinning rust hard drive ultimately comes down to reliability: you have to baby them, one bad shock and the magnetic needle scratches the platter, then all your data is gone without any way to recover them.

Datacenters usually have redundancies just in case, but being that NAND flash is dirt cheap nowadays, the flaws of spinning rust hard drives are too great to overcome.

[-] ryannathans@aussie.zone 12 points 11 months ago

Why would running datacentre drives experience a bad shock?

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