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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

I just got up from conversation with a couple of older black men, that I said "well I got to go back to work and start cracking the whip." And it occurred to me then that it was probably a really insensitive stupid thing to say.

Sadly, it hadn't occurred to me until it's already said.

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[-] TheRealKuni@lemmy.world 88 points 1 year ago

cracking the whip

I think this is a fantastic example of what you’re talking about.

On its face, “cracking the whip” doesn’t need to be seen as offensive. Humans have collectively spent far more time using whip cracks to motivate animals than fellow humans, I suspect.

However, the determination of offensive speech is not in the hands of the speaker, but rather in the reception by the listener. That is to say, you can have the purest of intentions but if someone is offended by what you say, no amount of explaining takes away the initial offense. And generally you don’t GET to do that explaining. Damage is done, and that person may then avoid you or already have a shifted opinion of you.

I’ve had to learn this lesson the hard way. And fortunately have had friends who were willing to tell me that I had offended them when I thought what I said was completely benign.

[-] NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social 35 points 1 year ago

I hate how everybody else gets to judge whether or not someone’s speech is offensive, regardless of what someone intended

[-] zaph@sh.itjust.works 37 points 1 year ago

That's just how humans are. It's not just about words but actions too. If you get drunk and drive your vehicle and hit and kill someone you go to jail. You didn't intend to kill anyone so why should you be held responsible? Sure intent matters but it's not the only thing that matters.

[-] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If you get drunk and drive, you had the intention to do something you knew could result in someone being killed. The intent very much matters in determining responsibility, and it's the reason you'd likely be charged with involuntary manslaughter, but not murder.

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[-] 4am@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago

The only thing I hate is the impatience with which some people act when something offends them.

I get that anger or frustration is the motivator but if this person who offended you is not just some random asshole, speak up and explain first. Maybe some people aren’t pieces of shit, they’re just repeating phrases they’ve heard a million times and never thought about.

Not everyone’s had that moment of realization that there is a ton of colloquial slang that is (or has been repurposed to be) a really fucked up dog whistle.

[-] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Yeah it sucks but also it’s both gut feelings and self defense against bad actors.

Being a person is hard and that’s one of the ways. But also we get to decide how we respond to it. Some things like OP’s example naturally feel “oh fuck yeah I shouldn’t’ve said that” other things leave a conflict of opinion.

Words can hurt. And intentions matter when we hurt people but they aren’t the only thing that matters. Someone hurt in a car crash caused by you driving poorly may decide that they don’t want to give you another chance to drive with them in the car and that’s their choice.

How we respond to accidentally hurting people though will speak volumes about us. Do we apologize and attempt to change, ever striving to be a more positive force in everyone’s lives? Or do we lash out or respond with apathy, even when third parties say we’re in the wrong? I know who I’m trying to be, and I hope others see the value in that person.

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[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago

I get what you're saying, but nobody who says they are going to start cracking the whip is talking about training animals. Even if they were, that's not an inoffensive metaphor, either. You're either comparing subordinates to slaves or animals. You're suggesting that physical violence, the threat of torture, is an appropriate motivator, or you wish it were. If that's not what you're saying, then you shouldn't say that, even as an exaggeration or a joke.

It is an offensive metaphor. You may not offend everyone, but if you have offended someone, it's not their fault you said something offensive. They didn't choose to be offended, and made no determination about what you meant. You should say what you mean, clearly, and with intent. Carelessness is not an excuse for using offensive language.

[-] livus@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

@themeatbridge

nobody who says they are going to start cracking the whip is talking about training animals

Not training animals. But I'm pretty sure many of the people who use that phrase think they are talking about horse-drawn carriages, as per the etymology given by the American Heritage Dictionary.

I think that's more likely what @TheRealKuni was referring to.

It's still best to avoid it of course.

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[-] NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

Fuck you, grow thicker skin. Clear enough?

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Crystal clear. You're angry and want me to go away because it bothers you that I've pointed out how offensive certain language can be.

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[-] lvxferre@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago

However, the determination of offensive speech is not in the hands of the speaker, but rather in the reception by the listener.

Descriptively speaking, I think that it's more complex than it looks like - the determination depends on the linguistic community, not just the listener.

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[-] guyrocket@kbin.social 65 points 1 year ago

You do realize you're asking for a racist-o-pedia, right?

[-] Selkie@lemm.ee 35 points 1 year ago

Me and the boys going to work on the Big Book of Slurs

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[-] 520@kbin.social 55 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Unfortunately there isn't really a full list because that shit changes so often. Previously accepted phrases become slurs and yesterday's slurs get reclaimed.

[-] Thisfox@sopuli.xyz 21 points 1 year ago

And it is locational. Something insensitive in the US might be insensitive here in Oz or over in Europe.... Or might not.

That is how idiom works.

[-] 520@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

Yep. Can be things you wouldn't even think about too. For example the word 'spastic' isn't offensive in the US, but is deeply offensive in the UK, similar to the word 'retard'

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[-] LeftHandedWave@lemm.ee 37 points 1 year ago

My grandfather, who passed away in the 90s, used to say "cotton pickers" for people that he meant as "jerks". It took me until the 2010s that he was taking about black people. 🤦‍♂️

[-] 4am@lemm.ee 20 points 1 year ago

A lot of people post online that they love the phrase “cotton-headed ninny-muggins”.

But once you look at it thought this lens…boys I think this one’s not ok.

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[-] ivanafterall@kbin.social 34 points 1 year ago

Speaking of stupid and insensitive, I was in my 20s before someone explained to me that to reference "jewing someone down" on price was not a great thing to say. It seems absurd. I'd just never seen it in writing or thought about it--it was an idiom, that's it. You want to get a better price, so you jew them down. I guess I thought it was a homonym, if anything, but I didn't really think about it, at all. Big-time facepalm moment when it clicked for me. Likewise for, "I got gypped."

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[-] TheGiantKorean@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago

When I was younger, I thought the term "cracker" referred to white people being pale like a cracker that you'd eat. I did not realize until later that it was referring to whipping.

[-] pastabatman@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

I'm 38 and I did not know this.

[-] ULS@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago

So you're telling me Saltines aren't part of my American heritage?

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[-] guyrocket@kbin.social 26 points 1 year ago

I remember in my 20s the phrase "indian giver" coming out of my mouth. I hadn't used that phrase since I was a kid of 10 years old or so.

I immediately realized that I should never say that shit again. Adult me realized it is a horrible thing to say but as a kid I just thought it meant you gave and asked for it back. I had much more context as an adult.

Most of the time I think before I speak, but not always.

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[-] Nemo@midwest.social 21 points 1 year ago

The two that really make me wince are "Indian giver" and the related "Indian summer" and of course calling hooch "firewater" isn't great either.

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[-] pingveno@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Oof. At work we currently have a project for words deemed insensitive. For the most part I think it's worthy, but some things are overboard. The project group cast a very wide net, ignoring context and etymology. My biggest disagreement is over "black" and "white".

Take "black box" and "white box" for types of testing. These are based merely on the properties of light. I have serious doubts about anyone ever having felt excluded by their use. And yet, we're wasting time coming up with non-standard nomenclature to satisfy this supposed slight. There's a whole laundry list of words like this.

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[-] nitefox@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 year ago

phrases that are stupid

We haven’t invented a storage big enough for that yet

About the others, there are some obvious ones but other than that it mostly depends on context and culture. Some pointed the ricing thing for Linux, but I don’t think anyone in the community, myself included, thought about Asian ppl when calling themselves a ricer; nor I think it’s racist, so again: aside for obvious insults or widely known slurs, it basically falls back to context

[-] SpezBroughtMeHere@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

You're overthinking it. You didn't say anything insensitive or stupid. It will offend some people, but they are usually looking at how to be a victim and that gives them an opportunity. It's just words, don't worry about it so much.

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[-] lvxferre@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Odds are that such a list won't ever exist. Insensitivity and bias depend on meaning, and meaning depends on context. As such, we [people in general] need to pay attention to what we're saying, and to whom, in to avoid both things. No easy way.

[-] user224@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 1 year ago

It's not quite what you're looking for, but there's this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

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this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
176 points (100.0% liked)

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