In fact, Hamas leaders say that their goal was to trigger this very response and that they're still hoping for a bigger war. It's all part of a strategy, they say, to derail talks over Israel normalizing relations with regional powers — namely, Saudi Arabia — and draw the world's attention to the Palestinian cause.
"This was our plan all along!" Lol? At this rate there won't even be a Palestine to pay attention to...
“This was our plan all along!” Lol? At this rate there won’t even be a Palestine to pay attention to…
Try and remember where things were prior to the attack. There was a legitimate movement happening where people were starting to recognize the apartheid state that Israel had set up. The conversation was materially shifting to focus on the abuses of the Israeli government. Things were happening that seemed like the whole thing could come to resolution without Hamas being involved. The terrorist attack was as much about maintaining the status quo of conflict as anything else. Hamas and Netanyahu both had their power waning as a function of the failed strategies both have been employing for decades. The attack reset the clock for both of them. It justifies Israels decades of shitty policies that have objectively compounded the situation and made it much worse, along with justifying Hamas position about this being a war for survival. Both hawk factions benefit from this, no people benefit from this.
Just like they destroyed the 2 state solution / Oslo accords when they got Bibi elected over Perez using suicide bombers and bombing buses full of civilians.
This is a repeat of Hamas' greatest hits.
Hamas has successfully fucked the Palestinians their entire existsnce.
I never thought about it like this. I never realized that this was Hamas’ motivation. But yeah, it makes perfect sense when you look at it from this point of view.
I guess I thought that Hamas…cared(?)…more about the Palestinians, so when people would say that this is the reaction they wanted from Israel, I was confused. But yeah, okay. Thanks for that.
things were happening that seemed like the whole thing could come to a resolution without hamas being involved.
This is utter fantasy. There was/is a growing movement on the left in the west recognizing the abuses of the Israeli regime but that movement was very marginal and would probably remain so in the near future. The governments and ruling elites in the west still overwhelmingly supported Israel and were willing to turn a blind eye to the abuses, even as they have increased under the new far right government that came to power recently. Even the Arab countries that previously championed the Palestinian cause were defecting.
The trajectory of this conflict before Oct 7th was a slow legalistic ethnic cleansing in the west bank backed unquestioningly by the United States. A few more leftists might protest it in the U.S. but they are fundamentally impotent against the inertia of the current system as a majority of the people don't know or care about Palestine. Doesn't matter if a tweet calling Israel an apartheid state gets millions of likes if the U.S. Congress still votes 430 to 5 for aid to Israel every time it comes up.
The Palestinian cause needed something to keep it relevant and shake up the status quo that was slowly killing it. Oct 7th was probably one of the worst ways to do it, but at least more people know about how horrible the system is.
When someone gives you knowledge— Listen. Thank You.
Palestine isn’t the point. Destroying Israel was the point. And the more this goes on, the more likely other countries (such as Saudi Arabia) are likely to step in and go after Israel. Which could result in the destruction of Israel.
That’s my understanding of what this article was about anyway.
As long as Israel has Uncle Sam parked off the coast there is no destruction of Israel happening anytime soon. The us could decimate every nation surrounding Israel and then some, probably with just the assets we have in the region alone. They know that so there won’t be any mass attack on Israel. Hamas planned to trigger Israel into a genocide and then have all of the terrorist groups/ Muslim nations launch an attack on Israel. They want a massive world war. But that’s just not happening with where global politics are at. The us is going to provide the protection for Israel to do essentially what they want. We are too chicken shit to pressure Israel into stopping this genocide so we are stuck.
I expect to see terrorist groups in all of the surrounding nations continue to try to trigger a global conflict by attacking Israel and US assets in the region, but its just unlikely to go anywhere.
So Hamas poked the hornets nest, gets nothing but thousands of their people dead. Israel is revealed to be the hard right genocidal dictatorship we have all known it to be. The US continues to sink millions into foreign wars. Round and round we go.
And the more this goes on, the more likely other countries (such as Saudi Arabia) are likely to step in and go after Israel.
No way would SA sacrifice their sweetheart deal with the US to do this. They are dependent on the US for security. This is about proxy sectarian politics between moral enemies Saudi Arabia (Sunni, ally of the US who is Israel's pal,) and Iran (Shia, backers of Hamas and Hezbollah.)
Not to mention, SA probably isn't stupid enough to attack with intent to destroy (relevant because a state being under credible threat to survival is the kind of scenario usually given for that state actually using weapons of mass destruction) an almost certainly nuclear armed state, especially one that is close enough by to have no time for warnings or interception, and especially when they have no equivalent weapons of their own as deterrent.
Unfortunately it seems that they will get what they want.
Israel has been bombarded with nearly 10,000 rockets, ballistic missiles and bomb carrying drones over the last month - from Gaza to the centre, Lebanon to the north and Yemen and Iran to the south. In addition there are almost daily terror attacks coming from the west bank.
There are civilian fatalities every day there. A school was recently hit and destroyed from a ballistic missile hit. Thankfully the city that was hit moved to online studies due to the threats so it was empty.
The only reason we don't see a death toll of thousands of Israelis is due to extreme defence measurements including the evacuation of more than 250,000 Israelis from the north and centre.
The whole situation is just escalating by the day and the massive attacks are fuelling Israelis rage.
Both the Houthis and Hezbollah hinted a massive attack tomorrow. Another serious hit to Israeli civilians will send this whole thing over a cliff.
The IDF rarely shows mercy. I don’t really understand what the surrounding countries are thinking. If they want to escalate things to remove the status quo they certainly are. But at what cost?
Both sides are religious fanatics. You can't reason with a fanatic
This isn't about religion, at least not anymore. Palestinians have been oppressed by Israelis because they want the land. Palestinians want Israel dead because they've been oppressed and marginalized.
It is also about religion. Radical Jewish think they are chosen by the God over others. Radical Islamist think killling infidels or in name of the God is best outcome, if kids die they died for God and will be rewarded . Take away religion, radicals will have much harder time find people to die in their cause.
This is a very simplistic take on a very complex situation. I have friends in Tel Aviv, I've visited their homes. Some were raised very orthodox jew in Jerusalem, didn't even have internet most of their lives. I've been to the Western Wall and seen the Jewish people praying, while the Muslims watch outside the gate (they each have their own time they can go in).
Talking with all my friends, the answer is always "it's complicated". It's only religion so far as "we want to occupy the same space". It kickstarted it, but that could have been anything -- oil, water, ports, whatever. But since it turned to land, it became very politically motivated. Who can powerful countries ally with for key tactical military presence? For the people living there, how can I feel more safe?
I'm kind of rambling, but there's way too much to talk about in just a comment. But yea, the answer is that it's very complicated.
There have been religiously motivated attacks against Israelis since the creation of Israel.
I think they're trying to get Israel to act in such a way that they finally lose the American support. Israel currently gets to do whatever it wants without consequence because the US will seemingly back them unconditionally. Also, many countries, people, and organizations are afraid to criticize Israel because they get called anti-Semitic. But I think that only works while Israel can manage to convince people it's the "good one".
Those radicalized will be happy to die in name of their God. If civilian dies depending on their religion they will be rewarded by their God or infidels will be punished. So in their mind as long as many people die its a win.
You mention the ordinance going one way but not the other and claim Gaza is a crater because they don't have as much defenses. This is simply not true, Israel has saturated Gaza 2000lbs at a time in such quantity only a nation backed by a world power could. Give Palestine the same iron dome system and Gaza would still be a crater because Israel will always have more. Similarly Israel claims 12000 successful strikes, meaning more than 12000 were attempted and I can guarantee they aren't surplus ussr unguided bullshit.
There hasn't been a major attack on Israel since the "war" began.
Duh, there's probably going to be one more or less every month indefinitely. Knowingly bombing civilians doesn't exactly engender good feelings.
I'm not sure I understand what you tried to say here. I was referring to Hamas's leaders motivations and the current climate in Israel, not to Israel's actions in Gaza.
There hasn’t been a major attack on Israel since the “war” began
That's just incorrect.
What choice did they realistically have? Be strangled out slowly by Israel while watching settlers pushing borders slowly but surely? No one has given a shit about Palestine since before ISIS / Syria, by my recollection.
That said it's also, of course, completely inexcusable to kill and take hostage civilians no matter the underlying justifications they might have.
This is just a shit storm about 80 years in the making. And there just isn't a solution in sight.
What choice did they realistically have?
Victim blaming as it is. The choice was not to murder people.
The choices were: 1. die slowly while no one is looking 2. make it quicker and put it on full display, hoping that something might happen
What would you choose? The West bank shows that peace isn't and was never an option.
As I said in an earlier comment:
"Hamas is not Palestinians. Hamas steals aid meant for Palestinians. They embed themselves in civilian areas. They take investments that other groups make to improve Palestinian lives, and dismantle them to use for weaponry. They stockpile food, medicine, and water and don't share it with civilians when Israel cuts off those crucial resources.
The leaders of Hamas are rich fucks living cushy lives in the UAE and could not care less about Palestinians. This isn't some freedom fighter group that's out of options. It's terrorists who purposely co-opt language from peaceful protestors to make them sound like extremists."
Don't confuse Palestinians with Hamas, they deserve so much better than that.
Hamas is not Palestinians. Hamas steals aid meant for Palestinians. They embed themselves in civilian areas. They take investments that other groups make to improve Palestinian lives, and dismantle them to use for weaponry. They stockpile food, medicine, and water and don't share it with civilians when Israel cuts off those crucial resources.
The leaders of Hamas are rich fucks living cushy lives in the UAE and could not care less about Palestinians. This isn't some freedom fighter group that's out of options. It's terrorists who purposely co-opt language from peaceful protestors to make them sound like extremists.
Even if one believes that violence was the only option that the Palestinians had left, how can anyone justify their indiscriminate targeting of civilians instead of going after military and political targets? (I don't mean you btw, I mean in general.)
Nobody ever won a revolution by killing their oppressor's grandma and taking children hostage, so it's clear that Hamas are less freedom fighters and moreso simple terrorists.
What choice did they realistically have? Be strangled out slowly by Israel while watching settlers pushing borders slowly but surely?
there just isn’t a solution in sight.
There are non-violent solutions. They could come to terms with the fact they lost this conflict a long time ago, pacify themselves, and sue for a viable peace; that's the best path out of this long conflict I can see. Constant attacks against an enemy they cannot defeat is what led to their current miserable situation.
So your solution is for the palestinians to just give up? Constant guerrilla attacks are what drove the US out of afghanistan and iraq and vietnam. So how is that not going to work for Hamas? Hamas has a network of tunnels below Gaza so that entire region will become a kill zone and Israel won't be able to hold it. History doesn't repeat itself but it sure does rhyme.
There aren't any non-violent solutions that would make any impact, Israel has made sure of that. Protests in Israel and Palestine are suppressed and ignored by the increasingly far right Israeli state. Protests in the west are dismissed as anti-semitism and both parties continue to send aid. Boycott divestment and sanctions have been made illegal. Every vote in the u.n. or attempt to try the Israeli government on human rights abuses is vetoed by the u.s.
If you want to see what happens when they give up on violence look at the west bank. Fatah has long ceded military control to Israel and have they been rewarded with any degree of autonomy or rights for Palestinians? No just continual encroachment and violence from settlers and the IDF.
The choice was really simple. Not opposing a two state solution would have been a great start. All their actions have been to subvert peace or compromise using violence at every turn.
Now you can twist that however you like, but will you really deny that having an independent internationally-recognized Palestinin state is better than endless war, thousands of civilians dead, etc? Albeit perhaps less than they want or think they deserve? It would be a start.
Face it, their "all or nothing" approach is exactly responsible for the current state of affairs. They don't deny that, they are proud of it. Read their own words.
Hamas or Israel? Hamas actually announced support for a two state solution back in like 2006, and also in 2017:
The 2017 Hamas charter presented the Palestinian state being based on the 1967 borders. The text says "Hamas considers the establishment of a Palestinian state, sovereign and complete, on the basis of the June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital and the provision for all the refugees to return to their homeland." This is in contrast to Hamas' 1988 charter, which previously called for a Palestinian state on all of Mandatory Palestine. Nevertheless, even in the 2017 charter, Hamas did not recognize Israel.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
Israel, on the other hand, has never granted Palestinian statehood on terms they could possibly accept. Look at the Oslo Accords - all kinds of concessions for Palestine, this insane military framework going through the West Bank - but no statehood. Basically every time there's a "peace process" they pose these decreasingly compelling terms.
One state solution is making more and more sense to me these days. It sounds like a radical solution given the polarization and history, but there's a lot more opportunity for a workable solution that way that actually allows reparations.
The solution: Change the material conditions of the people in Gaza with an influx of Capital. But alas, there’s a reason the Tulsa Race Massacre happened.
Curious to see how their apologists will spin that.
Every dead Palestinian Muslim is a martyr to Hamas, no? Every life just another tool to accomplish their religious-political objective, which afaik is solely the destruction of Israel. Or ask yourself why they intentionally link their paramilitary network to schools, hospitals, private residences and such.
Say whatever you want about Israel and Zionism, Hamas are NOT "the good guys" here and never have been. Their actions are indefensible. No amount of whataboutism changes that...
I've yet to see anyone defend Hamas's actions, even from comments that have been reported by others. What people do say is that Hamas's actions does not excuse Israel's military committing the atrocities that they are doing. Sounds like you are making up an antagonistic group that aren't really seen on Lemmy.
Unfortunately it is entirely possible for there to be no good guys at all. Take a step back and realize that you can choose not to take a side in every issue.
Hamas spokesperson Taher El-Nounou told the Times that, rather than end with a cease-fire now, his group would prefer for the conflict to expand.
"I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders and that the Arab world will stand with us," he told the Times.
I suspect Hamas's attack will cost Palestine many lives and more land but will not lead to a greater war. Every other time their Arab neighbors went to war for the Palestinians it did not work out well for them; Iran is likely to continue to put pressure on Israel via Hezbollah rather than blow their load with an all-out attack and lose their regional bargaining chip.
It's all part of a strategy, they say, to derail talks over Israel normalizing relations with regional powers — namely, Saudi Arabia — and draw the world's attention to the Palestinian cause.
This may have stalled recognition by Saudi Arabia but things will normalize again once Gaza is pacified. Israel and the US are better international allies to have than Palestine.
Every other time their Arab neighbors went to war for the Palestinians it did not work out well for them
Not just didn’t work out for them. The PLO turned around and tried to overthrow two of the neighboring countries: Jordan in 1970 and Lebanon in the 80s.
Turns out a mass terror attack on a nation rarely benefits the attacker or the nation that was attacked, normally with the attacker coming away worse than their better armed opponent.
It's basically 9/11 all over again. But on a smaller scale and with a Middle Eastern nation far happier to be brutal on the targeted side.
Saudi is probably more annoyed at Hamas for getting in the way of their plans than they are considering cutting off their deals.
yeah Hamas bad. always
lolwat?! they had no chance to do that. what's going on now is basically directly their fault. wow.
The status quo of actually having people in Gaza? Because at this rate, there won't be anyone left.
January 6, Russia invading Ukraine, BRICS, Hamas. There’s a pattern here if we choose to see it.
I can name literally any set of world events and say "there's a pattern if we choose to see it". Humans are wired to find patterns in things, thinking you've found one doesn't always mean a meaningful one is there.
Heard this floating around in the webs: Hamas wanted a last standoff sort of fight, which would result in a higher death count vs. what was happening for decades, death of Palestine by smaller conflicts.
Crips/bloods and Independent (RFK Jr.) seem to be pushing for more war at the end of the day, so looks like Iran/Yemen and others will join in on the fight. Biden sent US troops closer to the conflict, so once US deaths are seen conflict on the US side will increase.
Heard somewhere that the people in charge of Israel were also helping fund Hamas so as to increase conflict... -Tangent thought: reminded me of Clinton proping up Trump, so as to have an easier win in 2016
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
edit: fixed word salad a bit
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