Abused minority: attempts to use the only leverage they have to influence policy away from full-throated support of an ongoing genocide
Neoliberals and their useful idiots: "You must want fascism!" 🤦
Considering that literally the only other options would be objectively worse, and would give the openly fascistic party a better chance at winning, are they wrong tho?
I fucking hate the stranglehold on power that the 2 party system gives to both parties, and how it allows them to hold our votes hostage. But at the same time I'm a pragmatist who understands how electoral politics works, and also someone who understands that while voting won't get you to a utopia, not voting can absolutely help push the country farther and farther away (as we saw in 2016).
I'm absolutely not going to be the guy that tries to guilt people into voting against the fascists even if it means holding their nose for a party they don't like (which is where I've landed), but there really isn't a much better option available that isn't directly against peoples' better interests. I'd love to hear where I'm wrong or overlooking something better, but I haven't seen it yet.
I agree. It's a huge gambit that is unlikely to pay off.
Why? Because despite valid concerns over Israeli aggression and Palestinian oppression, support for Israel is still high and for every Muslim you try to reach out in support you risk ostracizing the predominantly Democratic Jewish voters (which roughly doubles Muslim population) all the same. I'd hate to be the analyst for Biden on that, but it's pretty cut-and-dry.
Right but... they don't want Trump to be president. They want someone like Biden to be (or Biden) and for Biden to not support a brewing 'Hot' Genocide (It was already arguably one and I don't know the proper terms here). It's just that the only leverage they have is withdrawing support. It's a game of chicken.
It's just that the only leverage they have is withdrawing support. It's a game of chicken.
I don't disagree with what you said, but this right here is the most correct. My only point was that their leverage amounts to holding a grenade and pulling the pin. Sure, they'll hurt the Dems for not doing the right thing, but they're still going to hurt themselves much worse.
That's how first past the post voting works. It sucks, but until that changes it's what we got.
Yeah, except for the fact where even THREATENING to do anything but meekly go along with it gets you ridicule if not outright hostility, no matter how noble the goal.
If you truly think it sucks, why are you vehemently defending it against viewpoints closer to your own than those of the out of touch establishment?
Because we tried that and got Trump. That's the risk here.
No, you tried going along with the neoliberal way of doing things and everything went so shitty for regular people that a lot of those who were already most vulnerable to demagoguery were radicalised to the point of Trump.
More Hillary primary voters didnt for for Obama in his general then there were Bernie primary voters that didn't vote for Hillary in the general. So I don't think saying 'we tried that and got Trump' is truthful at all.
Sticking to the two party system will not stop the next fascist, it can only delay them. Look at the past 30 years of presidents, flip flop back and forth some 4 years some 8 but a new face meant it was the other parties turn.
At some point we need to do something different and if you wanna wait for the better smarter fascist that's learns from Trump's mistakes, you're going to have a really bad time.
No shit we need to move away from the system we have. Literally no one here is saying otherwise.
The problem is you're not proposing a solution, you're just saying we should piss on a sign post and call it effective action. It does nothing to help, and actively helps those making things worse.
You want change? Look for something meaningful to do instead of whining that people are rightfully criticizing you for your ineffective actions.
Last time I acted on a threat like this, we got Bush Jr. I absolutely did not want to see Tipper Fucking Gore in the White House again, so I voted Green Party. Turns out, me and a bunch of other people doing the same thing almost certainly resulted in the resulting 20 years of constant war, and the deaths of countless innocent civilian non-combatants. I really do believe that blood is on my hands.
Every potential US president with any real chance of winning - all of them - will support Israel. Taking voting action that will lead to a guy who will not only continue to support Israel, but will fan the fires of anti-Islamic rhetoric, and is also a right-wing white supremicist who openly hates poor people... that's the definition of "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
They're angry. I*m angry. My representatives know I think our support of Israel in this genocide is unconscionable. Threatening to not vote for the lesser of two evils is an understandable statement of frustration, but until there's a credible alternative candidate who says they'd cut military support for Israel... well, it's just punching a brick wall.
Last time I acted on a threat like this, we got Bush Jr.
puts on mechanic outfit that's your problem right there! You've got your intended effect meter on backwards. puts it back to "politician acts on threat from constituents"
I really do believe that blood is on my hands.
Blaming yourself for what others do is a classic sign of being in a toxic relationship. You didn't invent the undemocratuc Electoral College, without which Dubya would never have been president and none of his war crimes were suggested by you.
Every potential US president with any real chance of winning - all of them - will support Israel.
Yeah, as long as people like you reinforce the toxic status quo by doing their best to vehemently oppose every attempt to hold them accountable.
My representatives know I think our support of Israel in this genocide is unconscionable.
And your representative also knows that they can count on you and others to run interference every time someone tries to effect meaningful change.
Threatening to not vote for the lesser of two evils is an understandable statement of frustration, but until there's a credible alternative candidate who says they'd cut military support for Israel... well, it's just punching a brick wall.
You would have told Martin Luther King to cut it out with the "brick wall punching" for sure.
One tiny correction: SCOTUS appointed W.
https://www.history.com/news/2000-election-bush-gore-votes-supreme-court
Lesser evilists are no small part of why the two party system continues on undisturbed. Free propagandists that are convinced the only way to fix this is to continue to not disturb the system that continues to produce further right candidates every term.
Whats the definition of insanity again?
But my favorite part is instead of doing anything civicly productive, they would rather simply yell at the citizens who don't think and vote the same way they do.
And yet people constantly harping about voting about voting for third parties in a system that doesn't support it totally isn't screaming into the wind over and over.
I dont disagree that we need a change... but voting for third party national candidates isn't the way to do it.
The neoliberal mantra:
Yeah, we're shit. But what are you going to do, vote Republican?
In real life some of those people just won't vote. I'll never understand why the blame isn't put on the candidate for low voter turnout.
It just sucks neoliberals have shown time and time again that they're fine ignoring anyone to the left of them because they feel entitled to their votes. Even tho it's clearly not been working for decades.
Sure, if you want to interpret "voting against Biden" as not voting. On election day, I think most Muslims know that not voting or voting for Trump or any other Republican is directly against their interests.
I think you put a lot of faith in the typical voter.
too much, even.
You pretty much just reworded my exaggerated quote:
Yeah, we’re shit. But what are you going to do, vote Republican?
Yeah, we’re shit. But what are you going to do, vote Republican?
You forgot the bit at the end where they laugh like a One Piece villain.
…yeah, I’m sure Trump will have your back…
Exactly. I'm sure they're pissed at Biden for his position on Israel. Justifiably. But Trump already has a track record of being bigoted when it comes to Muslims and already talks about oppressing them, so this seems like cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
I think it’s just shitty they have to choose between their families getting attacked in the Middle East and their families getting attacked in America.
What a terrible system of government.
I agree with you 100%, but that's the reality of the situation. We should have anything but FPTP voting in this country so people like American Muslims don't have to make faustian bargains, but I hope they realize they do have to make that bargain if they wish to retain their rights.
That’s the neat part about this system: Even if they do vote there’s a decent chance Biden still loses and they lose their rights anyway.
This entire world is fucked.
So, are Democrats going to adapt to this reality?
Or are they gonna demand enthusiastic support regardless of their behavior and start blaming people they already regarded with withering contempt when that doesn't work?
"At least we voted our conscience on Gaza" ~ Muslim Americans as they get dragged off to the MAGA reeducation camps.
Then you completely understand why voting for a 3rd party is not a realistic option for change at the national level and only serves to siphon votes from your chosen party and actively works against the causes you claim to want to promote.
By all means, vote 3rd party in the general, I've done it more than once during contentious elections. I'm not your dad and I'm not looking to convince you of who to vote for, but I'm not going to stay silent when people act like there's no downside to holding their ideals in the face of reality.
Let's be fair. With the Electoral college it doesn't matter, unless you happen to live in a handful of states.
Otherwise, in Minnesota and In Idaho you can vote for whomever the fuck you want since your vote matters as much as a fart on a roller coaster.
Exactly! The electoral college makes your vote meaningless. They only look at the general vote as a statistic. I think that statistic should reflect discontent when we we're inevitably again asked to pick between 2 ancient pedophile capitalists.
Did you read the article?
" in multiple battleground states that Biden won with thin margins last time, a growing chorus of community leaders say his handling of the war in Gaza and Islamophobia at home jeopardize his path to victory in the Electoral College, with many Muslim American and Arab American voters saying they plan to either stay home next November, vote for a write-in or a third-party presidential candidate, or simply leave the top of the ticket blank."
Not voting for Biden isn't the same as voting for Trump. If it was, then not voting for Trump would mean that they were defacto voting for Biden.
Votes are earned, otherwise people are just hostages. If Biden, and Democrats at large, care about their votes, they'll earn them.
In a 2 party system, not voting for a party that does not rely on voter suppression, is giving a vote to a party that does.
Conservatism needs disenfranchised votes, they always benefit from lower voter turn out.
Yes, I read the article before posting it...
And, yes, in a 2-party, winner-take-all system, not voting is the same as voting for Trump.
On election day, I think most Muslims know that not voting or voting for Trump or any other Republican is directly against their interests.
Not surprised at all. Biden has been awful with his Israel stance and I honestly can't judge anyone that won't put their vote on him for that.
Pretty sure one can easily blame Trump voters for much worse and much more.
Ah yes, the glory that is bipartisan democracy.
Can't blame 'em.
Biden sucks. Biden has ALWAYS sucked. His only selling point was damage control over Trump. But that's thin and a tough sell with his full throated endorsement of Israeli oppression. At no point is real change an option in the voting booth, it's just picking the lesser of two evils. I don't fault those who can't stomach it.
Not voting or voting for Trump will be directly against any interests American Muslims might have regardless of whether Biden "sucks" or not.
In the US 2-party system where the winner takes all, not voting is the same as voting for Trump.
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