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submitted 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) by Zedstrian@sopuli.xyz to c/fediverse@lemmy.world

In the graph above I've arranged the 28 Threadiverse instances with at least 200 monthly active users (MAU)—orange instances running Lemmy, green Piefed, and red Mbin—on the basis of which instances they defederate.

Each instance has its MAU count listed below it, sourced from the latest MAU figures at Fediverse Observer, with adjustments made to the totals for Piefed (due to undercounting by outdated instances, as noted here; I used @Vicinus@piefed.zip's suggested estimate of 7,200 Piefed users) and Mbin (due to tardigram.com having a duplicate listing).

After adjustments, there are an estimated 43,287 monthly active Threadiverse users (35,184+7,200+903), of whom 87.84% are on the 28 largest instances. The percentages listed alongside the MAU figures correspond to each instance's share of the total MAU count.

Defederation data was sourced from Federation Checker. The tool doesn't support Mbin instances, so I left fedia.io in its own category. If any defederations are missing, feel free to let me know. Ideally such a chart should also include community blocks to better illustrate which instances block what, but that data doesn't appear to be as easily searchable.

I also noticed cases of some instances being listed as being defederated by another instance, despite not appearing on the defederation list for that instance (i.e. reddthat.com and lemmygrad.ml are listed as being mutually blocked, despite neither having the other on their block lists). In testing that federation, I noticed that !wholesome@reddthat.com did not federate to Lemmygrad while !memes@reddthat.com did, so clarification on that matter would be helpful.

While I'll update my generalized chart as needed to correct errors, perhaps at some point an automated federation mapping tool similar to the one feddit.de formerly hosted could be developed to more completely illustrate instance federation.

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[-] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 88 points 4 weeks ago

Well that's a confusing graph.

[-] SCmSTR 30 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Since defederating is essentially an explicit block list and is directional, my assumption is that the groups that are circled have defederated from the things they're pointing at. I could be wrong.

Map needs a key/legend.

The red circled stuff seems to be only one possible option, but isn't visually very distinct, and the red circle shouldn't be broken like that, just make sure the lines are all visible.

[-] Zedstrian@sopuli.xyz 21 points 3 weeks ago

Apologies for the confusion; didn't want to make it overly cluttered, but in retrospect I see that a legend would have been useful. I'll incorporate suggestions in a revision.

[-] mehquestion@lemmy.world 19 points 4 weeks ago

Yeah, as someone who is struggling to understand the concept of federation...this doesn't help me at all.

I guess what its saying, if you're on lemmy.world, you can't access content on lemmy.zip?

[-] lastlybutfirstly@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

If I'm reading it correctly, lemmy.world cut ties from lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net while hexbear.net and beehaw.org cut ties with lemmy.world. lemmy.zip appears to be connected to everyone.

[-] scytale@piefed.zip 6 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah, .zip gives its users full autonomy to block instances/users as they see fit, which is why I’m on their instance.

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[-] VitoRobles@lemmy.today 13 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah I cant understand it at all.

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[-] kersploosh@sh.itjust.works 43 points 4 weeks ago

The beehaw.org/sh.itjust.works defederation is really one-way. Beehaw defederated from us after some exceptionally bad trolls were operating from sh.itjust.works in 2023. IIRC, they requested that we also defederate from them to really make sure the split was made. We honored their request.

We would happily reconnect if Beehaw decided they want to federate with us again. If not, then that's fine; they have a right to associate with whomever they like.

I believe infosec.pub temporarily defederated from us around the same time for the same reason. It was a rough time.

[-] Zedstrian@sopuli.xyz 19 points 4 weeks ago

I'll adjust the graph by the next version to account for it as an exception.

[-] kersploosh@sh.itjust.works 19 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

If you want to complicate the graph further, I believe hexbear federates using an allow list. Blahaj, lemmy.ca, and sh.itjust.works are not on the allow list, so they are effectively defederated. I haven't looked further to see which other large instances may be affected.

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[-] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 24 points 4 weeks ago

I really like this but I can not figure it out. Would you be willing to make the data available?

[-] Zedstrian@sopuli.xyz 22 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

The MAU numbers for instances were sourced from Fediverse Observer and calculated as a percentage of 43,287 for the percentages, but here's a table of the defederation data:

Lemmy
Instance Defederates
lemmy.world Hexbear, Lemmygrad
sh.itjust.works Beehaw, Hexbear, Lemmygrad
lemmy.zip N/A
lemmy.ml fedinsfw.app
feddit.org fedinsfw.app, Hexbear, Lemmygrad
hexbear.net lemmy.world
lemmy.dbzer0.com Lemmygrad, Feddit.org
lemmy.ca Hexbear, Lemmygrad
lemmy.blahaj.zone fedinsfw.app, Hexbear, Lemmygrad
programming.dev Hexbear
discuss.tchncs.de Lemmygrad
sopuli.xyz fedinsfw.app, Hexbear, Lemmygrad
lemmygrad.ml fedinsfw.app
lemmy.today N/A
slrpnk.net Hexbear, Lemmygrad
feddit.uk N/A
infosec.pub fedinsfw.app, Hexbear, Lemmygrad, Lemmy.ml
reddthat.com N/A
jlai.lu Lemmygrad
beehaw.org sh.itjust.works, lemmy.world, Lemmygrad, Hexbear
pawb.social Hexbear, Lemmygrad
thelemmy.club N/A
feddit.nl N/A
Piefed
Instance Defederates
fedinsfw.app Hexbear, Lemmygrad
piefed.social Hexbear, Lemmygrad
piefed.ca Hexbear, Lemmygrad
piefed.zip N/A
Mbin
Instance Defederates
fedia.io ?
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[-] AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip 21 points 4 weeks ago

Very proud of lemmy.zip! Joined very early on cause the name sounded cool lol, and apparently a lot of others also did. If i remember right we had a vote on defederations and the only major one to happen(or maybe the only one, idk) was exploding heads which was a nazi instance with CSAM on it so that was obvious, even that was mainly cause of the CSAM. I really like the approach of users being able to block instances and communities rather than the instance deciding for me. I still have ml and hexbear blocked tho cause they banned me after i stood up for trans rights or something lol

[-] LincolnsDogFido@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I'm feeling the same way. I've bounced around a few places since joining. I started on midwest.social which was great for a while, but I think the instance grew more than the dev could keep up with. I started seeing connectivity issues and problems displaying content so I reluctantly migrated to .world to see what joining the largest instance would be like. The technical issues went away but I couldn't figure out why I could no longer see /c/piracy until I realized that they're a bunch of pushovers that defederated from dbzer0 based on some liability bogeyman. So I found myself on Lemmy.zip where I can police my own content and have no technical issues.

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[-] taiyang@lemmy.world 17 points 4 weeks ago

Things that pop out to me:

  1. The Internet was made for porn, both in users and less defederating.
  2. The main blocks really are mostly the Triad (grad, hexbear and ml) which I get. I personally don't mind tankies despite the instance I'm on, but they can sometimes echo Russian propaganda that's demonstrably false. Communism as a concept is ok, though.

The Beehaw thing predates me, I heard they're nice people, though. I also agree with the sentiment that more fringe groups and random porn might scare away newbies, so I get why things are the way they are.

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[-] JRaccoon@discuss.tchncs.de 13 points 4 weeks ago

Kinda eye-opening, thx for making the chart. I hadn't realized it had gotten this bad. In my opinion, defederation should only ever be used to combat spam, not because of ideological differences or disputes between individuals.

One of the most common tips for people looking to switch over from Reddit has been that the instance you choose doesn't really matter. But it clearly does. Choose the "wrong" instance and you may suddenly find yourself cut off from a sizable portion of other users because someone else decided they know better than you what you should and shouldn't see.

I'm lucky to be on an instance that has "only" defederated one instance in this chart (lemmygrad.ml). I don't really follow the drama around here, so I have no idea why that instance is banned. All I see is that there are 558 active users I'll never be able to interact with just because someone I don't personally know (my instance admin) made that decision at some point.

Wasn't there just a big drama because some app developer built-in their own opinionated blocklist into their app or something? How is this any different?

My point being, why not leave these kinds of drastic decisions to individual users, who can and should block whoever they want, instead of dividing threadiverse into silos at the instance level?

[-] Zedstrian@sopuli.xyz 13 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Note that defederations with smaller instances (representing 12% of users) are not represented here, so there are even more defederations than what is listed here. Hopefully that will come across better with more data in the next version of the graph.

As requiring new users to implement multiple blocks off the bat can be a big ask for those still on the fence about leaving Reddit, defederating known NSFW, troll, and tankie instances can improve new user retention. For those who prefer more hands-off moderation practices, specific instances can cater to them, but I think a more tailored experience is better for users arriving from Reddit.

[-] spinning_disk_engineer@lemmy.ca 9 points 4 weeks ago

I'm not so sure, I'd rather have a prepopulated blocklist that I can further configure myself, as opposed to instance level blocks that I can't reverse.

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[-] JRaccoon@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 4 weeks ago

I think the main issue is that this isn't communicated clearly. Most people joining a random instance listed on join-lemmy.org won't know what defederation means and they have no way of knowing that by choosing that particular instance they'll be cut off from a certain number of other users.

[-] Cricket@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 weeks ago

As requiring new users to implement multiple blocks off the bat can be a big ask for those still on the fence about leaving Reddit, defederating known NSFW, troll, and tankie instances can improve new user retention. For those who prefer more hands-off moderation practices, specific instances can cater to them, but I think a more tailored experience is better for users arriving from Reddit.

There's a better approach for this, which is the one lemmy.zip takes: instead of defederating major but controversial instances for politics (as opposed to legal issues, which I completely understand), new user accounts have those instances blocked by default (user-level block). Problem solved. Newbies don't see posts that may scare them (oh no, communism!), but they can choose to see them if they wish.

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[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 10 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

This is what organic growth looks like. It spreads in fits and starts, bits of it clump together and pile up, pieces of it separate and take on life of their own or die. When part of it rots (hexbear) the larger organism cuts it off to limit the spread of disease.

Lemmy (and more generally, ActivityPub) is growing, not like a rose bush, but like a field of grass. Some pieces of it are blooming, some pieces of it are dying, some pieces are adapting to different environments, but the spread is inexorable and the horizon unlimited.

If you want to see what the field is like on the other side of that hill, well it won't just come to you, you'll have to get up and go to it.

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[-] OpenStars@piefed.social 6 points 4 weeks ago

Many fantastic instances do exactly that.

But in answer to your question, you may want to research The Intolerance Paradox. In short, when people refuse to follow the rules it kinda becomes spam. Even if you were okay with CSAM or pictures of pigs actively showing the poop falling out of their anuses (sadly, I bet you think I am being hyperbolic here? nope, this is kinda Hexbear's major schtick), the fact remains that it scares away newcomers.

I will note that if you self-host your own instance then you have perfect control over every aspect of your experience, being able to fine-tune it to perfectly suit your precise needs. Otherwise you will want to choose an instance provider that aligns with whatever your needs are. Some people will choose one of the instances that defederates from almost nothing, while others actually want an experience that is more what they are used to and would expect coming over from the overly bot-modded Reddit, i.e. they want (even outright demand) that censorship be done for them.

This is why the instance pickers need to carefully explain what each instance is about, since there is not just one audience with a single set of needs & expectations.

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[-] pruwybn@discuss.tchncs.de 12 points 4 weeks ago

This is cool, thanks!

[-] leadore@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

OK I think I get how to read this, once I understood the concept. Very nice work.

Maybe it would be a little clearer if the lines where boxes overlap were just slightly offset -- it would help see and distinguish them. For example if the blue box was moved down by just a little more than the width of the red lines, instead of being directly on top of them. If that makes sense.

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[-] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago

Thanks for the work, really interesting graph! I think it *might be easier to read if the rectangles were ovals or some morph between rectangle and oval, so that the overlapping groupings are a bit more distinct.

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[-] frongt@lemmy.zip 6 points 4 weeks ago

Wouldn't it make more sense to indicate federation with an arrow and defederation with no arrow?

Interesting that so many instances have defederated from fedinsfw.app. What's that about?

[-] Zedstrian@sopuli.xyz 12 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Wouldn't it make more sense to indicate federation with an arrow and defederation with no arrow?

Unless an instance chooses to defederate from another, everything is federated by default; indicating that with arrows would result in a very messy graph.

Interesting that so many instances have defederated from fedinsfw.app. What's that about?

Fedinsfw.app, like lemmynsfw.com before it, is an instance dedicated to hosting NSFW content. As such content can be off-putting for new users, and only a subset of users are interested in seeing it, some instances choose to defederate from instances dedicated to it. While I'm broadly against defederation that results in a fractured Threadiverse, in this case doing so is probably more helpful in terms of new user retention than it is harmful (users can easily have separate accounts on SFW and NSFW instances or choose an instance that maintains federation with both).

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[-] brognak@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 weeks ago

Ok, I'll be the one to ask: What happened that 6 instances with 13% of the population combined blocked the porn instance?

[-] Zedstrian@sopuli.xyz 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

As many instances were already blocking the original lemmynsfw.com, I suspect most do it as a means of moderating the feeds of new users who might not want to see porn. An alternative to this (as mentioned by @Cricket@lemmy.zip) would be blocking access to its communities (versus the instance itself) by default, allowing users to see replies from fedinsfw.app users and unblock the communities should they wish to. In either case, I think user retention is better served by limiting access to such content to those who are specifically interested in it.

For Multiverse and apparently Blahaj specifically, they defederate it over CP concerns due to it hosting a 'Fautbait' community.

[-] Cricket@lemmy.zip 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

An alternative to this (as mentioned by @Cricket@lemmy.zip) would be blocking its communities (versus the instance itself) by default, allowing users to see replies from fedinsfw.app users and unblock the communities should they wish to.

Hey thanks for tagging me, but let me clarify because that's not exactly what I meant. Lemmy.zip doesn't block any communities by default (as far as I can recall, at least). It blocks a couple of instances by default, and each user can remove those blocks if they wish. This is different from defederating from those instances because defederation cannot be controlled by users, only by admins.

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this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2026
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Fediverse

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