Hijab/niqab are a tool of the patriarchy. They keep women subservient to men. Abrahamic religions are inherently patriarchal and misogynistic. Women don't wear them because they want to, they wear them because they feel they have to.
And invalidating a woman's feminism because she wears a hijab is a tool of the patriarchy. That is the point.
Not to mention the most often have to under threat of death. If a feminist chooses to wear one it is the single most absurd garment to wear.
Not to mention the most often have to under threat of death.
Tell me, in which countries is this the case? And then tell me, which are the countries with the most muslims?
I'm sure you'll be able to process that information to come to the result by yourself, that you're spreading lies.
Well, I'm glad you're here to tell us how women feel. For a moment there I thought I might have had to listen to a woman's opinion.
Lemmite militant Atheist ahh comment.
Yeah, while the short and overly sexualizing clothing women wear in the west are of course tools of feminism, as everybody knows.
And you, most likely a man, dictating what women do or don't do out of free will is what? Oh wait, it sounds not only inherently patriarchal and misogynistic, but also absolutely western centric and islamophobic.
Now all you have to do is to tell me that you want to see their beautiful hair, and their nice figure, and we have a bingo.
Yeah, while the short and overly sexualizing clothing women wear in the west are of course tools of feminism, as everybody knows.
Yeah, people disagreeing with the OP aren't doing so out of a consistent commitment to feminism, they're largely doing it out of orientalism.
Lots of women wear Hijab's for reasons not overtly enforced by men. Lots of Muslim women don't wear them. Lots of Muslim women who choose to wear hijabs put an awful lot of effort into styling them in ways that make them feel good. Lots of non-Muslim middle easterners wear them because that's a part of the world with lots of sand, and getting that shit in your hair sucks.
Believe it or not, an entire religion and part of the world isn't as simple as images of ISIS ghouls killing women for not wearing a Niqab.
If the men are also covering their hair (which is true of some middle eastern societies like the Berber people, traditional Qatari clothing, traditional Saudi clothing, etc, and Sikhs), then it's not specifically ostracizing women in a society. But that is not true of traditional Muslim face coverings for women. And while I agree that there are plenty of sexist practices in Western society meant to hold women in their place, that hardly excuses the sexism practiced in much (not all) of modern Islam. Two things can be wrong.
Yes, of course two things can be wrong, but Muslims in western countries are usually already seen as foreign elements in society, and focusing on their oppression usually leads to even worse oppression (see e.g. France banning the Hijab in official roles, pushing out hijabi Muslims).
In my honest opinion it would be better to focus on fighting the western oppression of women. I think the liberation of women will happen by itself, given some time and the right conditions. (See Ilhan Abdullahi Omar, who is arguably more emancipated than the average western woman in a traditional relationship)
As to the question if men cover their hair, if men wear hot pants, if men wear spaghetti tops, I believe this is just a distraction, because I do not believe that feminism means totally equal clothing, but rather equal rights and opportunities.
What you say is generally true, however it is not always true. Some women have successfully been deceived (possibly by themselves) that it is not about oppression.
This is such a paternalistic attitude to have.
...
Not if men made you wear it. Or men made you think you must wear it.
Or even other women made you think you must wear it.
Same thing applied to women pressed into convents vs nuns. Or someone ordered into a long skirt vs choosing. The issue is choice, as it always is.
Then she isn't wearing whatever she wants.
That's the thing with religion. It's always brainwashing so how could it ever be what they want?
Assuming all adult women who wear hijabs can't make their own decisions about what they wear is removing their agency, not enforcing it. That's anti-feminist.
No, I assume anyone that partakes in any sort of religious tradition does so from being brainwashed. Many traditions even outside of religion are done just because it's the way we have always done them. Some are kept up for fun, some are kept up for control. Religion is absolutely about control.
Religion can be about control, it can also be about personal belief and faith.
If you assume anyone with faith is brainwashed, there is no point in arguing further. I hope you have more experiences with different people and the wider world so your opinions might gain some nuance.
That's the thing, I have had experience with lots of people and cultures. That's why I've arrived at the conclusion I have. Religion can make otherwise intelligent people believe the most ridiculous things.
People can believe ridiculous things for any reason at all. Doesn't mean I'll detract from someone's autonomy to wear whatever they want for whatever reason.
Ayn Rand has entered the chat.
Very 14 year old mindset there.
Embrace of a belief system that teaches that women should have less rights and less agency is anti-feminist, even if that embrace is of a feminist's choosing.
Why do you think style changes over time, and has accelerated with television and advertisements? We are all being made to buy and wear something, be it to follow the advertisement "this is the must to wear of the season", or to oppose consumerism.
So if we can now agree that there is no real free choice, and every choice is to some degree influenced by patriarchy, where do we stand? Does feminism even exist? Or is feminism less about what you wear, and more about how you feel about patriarchy?
It's not even close to the same thing... Or is there an entire purity culture around fashion where people straight up murder their children because they didn't wear the newest jeans?
I am sure nobody ever committed suicide because they were bullied because of their clothing
These kind of posts were pretty common post 9/11 as well. People who don’t actually care about women suddenly super concerned about this issue. But ask them about the issues closest to them and they are definitely not supportive of feminism.
I seem to be in the minority here, but I totally support her wearing one. In some cultures me wearing clothing covering my top half could be seen as OTT but it's really important to me that I wear it. Covering my top half when meme don't automatically have to can be seen as patriarchy, but I would feel awful without wearing tops.
Nothing is more reliable than posting about women's autonomy then to have men come doubt if she is even capable of making such a choice.
Clearly some men understand the effects of patriarchy on women far greater than a woman ever could. 🙄
Hold on, you can't be a real feminist, you're wearing a hat ! 😂
In real life, the thing you can't do to if you're a real feminist is (attempt to) force other women to wear, or not wear, a particular type of hat.
Oh but you see, brown women are all helpless brainwashed babies incapable of making their own decisions!
You think you're jesting, but I've seen exactly that attitude coming from feminist groups in my university days. Indeed it was exactly that attitude that killed the NAC in Canada.
It’s simple: if she wants to wear it it’s fine. If it’s because they are forced to because men are so weak they can’t handle seeing any of a woman’s skin than no, it’s dumb.
The people who say things like the top person are the same people who claim that they're feminists when all they do is attack trans people.
Yeah I ain't touching the rest of this thread with a 10 foot pole.
Almost sounds like a bunch of French people trying to rationalize their shitty "hijab ban" laws which exclusively target Muslim women.
Side-comment: what a surprise that the account posting the surface-level (quite possibly disingenuous) comment has what appears (to me) to be an AI-generated profile pic of a (conventionally) attractive slim blonde woman! It's almost like it's not an actual woman making the comment, and they're making the comment primarily for/towards other non-women...
More seriously, it reeks of the same tone as Musk's "concerning." tweets.
100% agreed and, indeed, people try to shame hijab wearers in my presence at intense risk of their eardrums.
Rage bait
Oh, look, people! ANOTHER Redcap guy lowering himself to tell us what's what! This never gets tedious and boring.
Relevant Obscure Song Reference
https://burkaband.bandcamp.com/album/burka-blue-single
Burka blue My mother wears a burka My father does it too I have to wear a burka The burka, it is blue
The sky over Kabul is also very blue The blue is from the burka Burka, burka blue
Blue, blue Burka blue
My grandma wears a burka And my grandpa does it too I will wear this burka But only just for you
Blue, blue Burka blue Blue, blue Burka blue
We all now wear a burka You don't know who is who If you want to meet your sister It can be your uncle too
Blue, blue Burka blue
You give me all your love You give me all your kisses And then you touch my burka And do not know who is it
Blue, blue Burka blue Blue, blue Burka blue
My mother wears blue jeans now And I am so suprised The dents are changing faster I don't know if it's right
Blue, blue Burka blue Blue, blue Burka blue
Ah yes. A song that consists 80% of repeating the word "burka" is absolutely relevant here. Thank you for sharing this extremely useful contribution.
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