Israel went wrong before it began. There is no way of displacing a population to create an ethnonationalist colony in a way that could be called "right".
Note that several prominent Jews, including Hannah Arendt and Albert Einstein, opposed the creation of a Jewish state in a 1948 letter, warning of fascism and comparing the precursor of Likud to the Nazi party.
Opinion on zionism has moved over time. Zionism started out as fringe around 1900, but now its the overwhelming majority opinion across judaism.
Also, 86% of American Jews (the vast majority of Jews -- about 85% are in the US or Israel) think Israel is necessary for the Jewish people. They may hold a handkerchief to their noses at "all the stuff currently going on", but israeli terrorism, theft, abuse and repression has been going on unbroken since the founding of israel and the nakba-- farther even-- since the ottoman empire withdrew from owning that territory for 800 years, even, at the end of WW1. They cant have it both ways. If they support the existence of israel, they explicitely support the existence as its been since it started. Since day 1 of its existence there has never been a humanitarian israel rooted in equality or basic human rights, and there never will be such an Israel. So that 86% (and sure, thats not all ) supports genocide but lacks the courage to say so. We can call it genocide-lite.
I think survey results show pretty clearly that a huge majority want the outcome of genocide but dont want to be seen supporting it. They love the idea of Israel but find the deaths of other regretable, and are happy to talk your ear off about how its inconvenient for them and how afraid they are-- as if that could hold a candle to whats been done to the innocent people Israel wanted land from. Their theory is that the real vicitms here are them, even as a vast majority of them explicitly or implicitly support genocide, often from existences of day to day 110% safety-- more than any other minotiry group-- where they may only ever experience having to deal with a political opinion on a blog that they find objectionable, which they feel like they can then frame as a bodily attack on their very existence.
What needs to happen is some form of adult government installed in the Levant, not the theocratic fascist ethnostate that is Israel. A violent ethnostate is going to continue to cause global terror and mass conflict. They cant be permitted to rule, because they have shown the world they cant be trusted to do it without rampant murder.
and the 100 years of terrorism when they started moving back didn't help
sigh
Zionism was a White Jewish Supremacist ideology from the very start and Israel was a White Jewish Supremacist and Colonialist project from the very start.
It didn't become so, it was always so and always meant to be so, the only thing that changed was the feeling of impunity to push-back from Western nations as, over time, Israel invested a lot abroad into capturing Politics and the Press, into Kompromat gattering Honeypots such as the one headed by Epstein, and into in Propaganda, especially in Anglo-Saxon nations, thus capturing the political classes there and shifting Western public opinion in favor of Israel. As that feeling of impunity increased, so did they more freely, openly and violently practiced their ethno-Fascist (same variant of Fascism as the Nazis) ultra-racist ideology against those they very openly called "vermin" - Muslims in general, especially Palestinians.
They have and always have had, as they themselves say, "Western Values", specifically late 19th century white colonialist values and early 20th century white supremacist ones.
PS: And if anybody has any doubt on the White part of their supremacist ideology, just look up the treatment of Black Jews from Ethiopia by the state of Israel, which included amongst other things forced sterilization.
I think the "mistake" started with the formation of Israel. I can understand the founding of their state after WWII, and their desire for a place where they can live without persecution. But, the location was a huge mistake if the goal was "peace".
Dropping them in the middle of their Holy Land? Automatic war for as long as they are there. Now, many are under the impression that they really are "God's Chosen People" and all of their desired "Holy Land" righteously belongs to them.
I think what is happening today was the desired outcome of Israel's foundation. USA and UK were perfectly fine with the Jews and Muslims fighting to the death, no matter who "wins", whatever is left will be all the easier for them (Christians incidentally) to control.
personally, I am opposed to Christians, Jews, and Muslims, to me there are no "good guys" to be found in the "Holy Land".
ETA Israel is a nuclear power now, remember that when you propose "solutions".
1945: A part of Germany should have been disposessed, a jewish state founded on this territory, and this Jewish state given nuclear arms, in case any fuckin Kraut ever had "ideas" again. End of story. Would have saved Jewish people and the Palestinian people a lot of horror. Would have saved me as a German many fuckin bonkers discussions with German bigots who all are so conveniently defending a jewish state (not on their land).
Israel didn't form because of WWII or because of Germany. The big aliyah waves started in the 1800s, and the Holocaust just accelerated what was already in motion. The Soviet Union, the Ottoman Empire, the colonized Arab areas of North Africa were all extremely antisemitic, just as much as Germany. The only difference is that Hitler made mass murder industrial.
Sorry, but ethno-states are a flat-out bad idea.
There's definitely no good guys. If you read into the history of the region, you'll quickly realize that there was never a "rightful" or "righteous" ruler. The ancient Persians, the Romans, the Turks, the Assyrians, the Arabs, the British, and the Israeli Jews have all been horrid. Genocide, oppression, slavery, ethnic cleansing, terrorism, deep seated hatred, and the idea of "if I don't do fuck them over first then they'll come after me" is the norm in this cursed region.
thats BS. The turks made peace between a lot of tribes and kept the bloodshed down. Comparing them to Israel and pretending they are the same is way beyond the pale.
The Ottoman Turks? Are you an idiot?
The Ottoman Empire was one of the most violent and brutal empires in human history. They practiced slavery and had one of the largest slave trades in the world. They would go invade their weaker neighbors unprovoked to expand their empire. When they force the people they attacked into submission they'll take "spoils of war" and distribute them among muslim soldiers and officials as instructed by islam. Therefore, they would steal the land, loot possession, and enslave people and hand them out as rewards for winning the war.
They would specifically kidnap and enslave young women and children either as servants or as sex slaves in harems. Everybody else gets a choice of either converting to islam or becoming a second class citizen under islamic law where you're forced to have less rights, less freedoms, face more discrimination, and harsher punishments than muslims. Oh, and you have to pay an extra tax that muslims don't have to pay (jizya) for the privileged of being oppressed.
They also colonize the lands that they conquer. They'll kidnap and relocate the children elsewhere, they'll give special benefits for muslims to settle the newly annexed lands, and they'll forcefully exile or relocate the nonmuslims if they're in the way of muslims colonizing the land. Oh, and the conquered people have zero representation at any institutional power if they're not muslims, and they can't hold a high ranking position if they're not also Turkish. Therefore these nations were often ruled by muslim rulers who ruled had no interest or obligation for the natives, they were just there to serve and enrich themselves. Because of this, a lot of the conquered nations were subject some pretty horrid treatment.
Turkish rule is so brutal that Ottoman history was filled with conquered nations breaking out in revolts, some lasted centuries because they would rather fight to the death and than be ruled by the Turks. The thing is that the Turkish reaction to revolts is so extreme that it's infamous in history. Instead of fighting to put down the revolt, the Turks would seek to genocide that society. They want to mass murder them, take their land, erase their culture, and pretend that it was always Turkish land. They did that with the Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Jews, and Arab Christians.
The Ottoman genocides are some of the worst in history. The very concept of genocide was literally made to describe what the Turks did to the Armenians. This idea that the Ottoman empire was peaceful golden age is quite literally bullshit propaganda that's funded by the Turkish government. There's a reason why that empire collapsed, and there's a reason why every single ethnic group in southeastern Europe, the Caucuses, and the Middle East despises it with a burning passion.
You would think that this something in the long past, right? But no. The Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian genocides are barely a century old. Turkey today still officially denies these genocides. They're still trying to genocide the Kurds to this day. Kurdish clothes, names, music, press, and language were outright banned until the 1990s. Even today, you can't call Kurdish towns by their Kurdish names, they can't speak Kurdish at any position in government, they don't true Kurdish media, and Kurdish children can't learn Kurdish in school. Not only that, but Turkey is also actively burning down entire Kurdish villages, they're mass arresting Kurdish activists and journalists, they're helping Azerbaijan invade Armenia, they're invading and occupying the Assyrian and Kurdish parts of Syria, they're literally illegally occupying and colonizing Northern Cyprus, they're trying to steal Greek islands and maritime territory as their own, they're constantly bombing Kurds in Iraq to keep them down, and the list goes on and on.
They're the biggest menace in the middle east, and this is all just legacy that was carried over from the Ottoman Empire, who by the way is heavily supported and celebrated in Turkey. Not in some delusional sense where they have a different view from what it actually was, but not Turkish nationalists are actively proud of all the genocides, oppression, and conquering they inflected upon the world and they want to see Turkey do it again.
Thinking that the Ottoman Turks were peace makers is so fucking mind numbingly stupid that it's painful to think that there are people this ignorant out there in the world.
This is liberal whitewashing. There are colonisers and there are the natives who are being exterminated. Its that simple.
Actually, the Palestinian people initially welcomed the Jewish diaspora with open arms and were totally willing to live alongside them. But Zionism is a fascist ideology, so of course the Zionists could not live equally, they had to have domination.
"Became"
There were idealistic, non- (or at least less) ethnochauvinist strands of Zionism through most if its history, alongside the colonialist, genocidal factions. Those less toxic groups have been disempowered and marginalized, and now the thugs dominate.
Some (and I'm among them) are of the view that, regardless of the benign motivations of some, the logic of colonialism and single-ethnicity nationalism will always cause it to reach this end state. Using an example from the Americas, there were priests among the conquistadors who opposed the genocide of the Aztecs. They were well-meaning people who wrote some nice books. The genocide still happened.
Israel was an insane ethnostate movement long before they even gained independence. There's a reason why an overwhelming majority of former colonial states criticized Israel's existence during its very inception.
Had the Zionist movement never taken off, Mandatory Palestine would probably have just become a regular old state like Lebanon or Jordan, Lebanon even has a pretty hefty Christian population right after Muslims, yet you don't see them in some constant genocidal warfare campaign against each other.
Even weirder, Judaism itself was against the idea of forming a Jewish state without a Messiah for thousands of years, but at some point the radical branch became the overwhelming majority. Orthodox Jews are completely outnumbered by their Zionist counterparts which have transformed Judaism into a complete ethnic superiority cult akin to the Aryan superiority of the Nazis. You have to be born a Jew, you can't just join because you want to (unless you dedicate your entire life into it, and still with caveats).
You'll see thousands of comments like "Anti-Israel is not Antisemitism", but at some point you need to address the elephant in the room. The current mainstream "Judaism" is very much an ethnic supremacy group by design. You can't effectively criticize Israel without pointing out that its actions are overwhelmingly supported by their citizens because of their religion. Everything they do in their eyes is completely justified because they view everyone not in their ethnic group as subhuman.
Zionism was literally always a fascist project.
Haven't read the book, but the title suggests things could have been different. That something happened to make things bad. If that's the argument, it is completely wrong. Israel could have turned out no other way. Extermination is the only possible outcome of a colonial ethno-state.
This "what went wrong" line is liberal Zionists trying to launder the reputation of the colony.
Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing and atrocities like the Deir Yassin massacre. Zionists literally spelled out the need to "transfer" the indigenous population of Palestine in the early 20th century.
Zionists could rely on western media, policy makers search engine rankings and moderators to gatekeep and control the narrative and image of their colony. The difference now is that social media reveals everything directly to people.
This was an interesting read.
Especially his speculation that lack of a clear constitution (Basic Law was adopted as late as 1994 and is not a full-fledged constitution) and lack of clear borders contributed to Israel's fall into the current state.
Too generous US "security assistance" certainly helped. If you can solve a problem with bombing without worrying about getting bombed, you may start thinking of war as a normal thing.
Failure to contain the populist extreme right is another stumbling block. If there had been no Netanyahu (and his corruption scandals, and the court cases awaiting him domestically, filed a considerable time before the ones awaiting abroad), things might be different.
Ultimately, I would say: Israel failed to install brakes, and failed to contain its greed for power and land. It had too much cooperation and still has too much cooperation.
I don't know if there's a reasonable way out.
don’t know if there’s a reasonable way out.
the way out need not be reasonable for the zionists. They are not due "reasonableness" at this point. Justice and peace needs to be restorative to the victims, not reasonable in the eyes of the criminals. The dead cant be brought back can they? How are zionists going to find a way out of that, beyond paying with their own blood? We're all open to their suggestions, but they arent even interested in coming to the table and never have been.
and
If there had been no Netanyahu
Go back and read about ben gurion and the start of Israel. Its never been reasonable, they always knew they were using terorristic means, theft and murder. They used to be more honest about it. Netenyahu is just the latest in 90 years of these violent supremecist murdering thieves.
https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/
How is this any different from the mentality that the Israeli far right uses now? This reads to me like collective punishment. The reality is that Israel is not going anywhere. The country is already established and it has a big distinct population, institutions, and culture. You can't destroy it. Like what is even the thought process here? To ethnically cleanse 7 million people to counterbalance previous ethnic cleansing? That's just the classic an eye for an eye mentality. The goal should always be to see Israelis and Palestinians living together in peace with everybody having the same rights and freedoms, not to carry out some weird vendettas for some misguided sense of justice held by westerners.
People often forget that countries evolve with time. No country will remain in its current state forever and no current projection is going to be constant forever. The circumstances around Israel are shifting, but all this means is that the country is set to move in a new direction sooner or later. As the current status quo shifts internationally, Israeli culture and politics will also shift to reflect it. Like most other countries, I think Israel will have a counter wave to the ultra far right. The new anti far right wave will lead to a more left wing government that will seek to undo the damage done by the far right and go after the ones who caused it.
It was a fascist ideology from its inception. We do you mean what went wrong with it?
Thank you, fkn terrorist-colonizers from the start. Churchill used them to terrorize the Irish before WWII and then sent them to Palestine.
Israeli and Holocaust historian Omer Bartov is ~~a POWERFUL Scholar!~~ ~~Kowledgeable about Jewish history!~~ ANTI SEMETIC!
-The BBC!
Better to say "has become". The genocide is on going. We all just act as we can to try to stop it.
Always was.
being vaguely on the right side of one of easiest human rights issues humanity has ever faced and writing a book about it does not make this guy an expert. His looking for causes outside to explain the zionists as victims and not owners and perpetratos is weak sauce.
No one becomes an expert based on their opinions or conclusions. In this case, he became an expert through his Oxford PhD, and subsequent 35 year long (and counting) academic career,
He's a historian. Looking for causes is kind of his job.
What makes someone an "expert", what's the bar? Who do you think qualifies as an expert?
He's an expert based on his formal education, his extensive academic research, and his long coveted career in the field. He's very clearly experienced and knowledgeable on the subject, and his words carry a lot more weight than some nobody on Lemmy who's just mad that some Guardian headline didn't meet your personal level of confirmation bias.
This is my proposal to end the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Egypt will be given the West Bank enlarged by land equivalent to the Gaza Strip. In return, Israel will be given the Gaza Strip and land at least 3 times larger than the West Bank in the Sinai Peninsula. Some of the land will be adjacent to water so Israel can build desalination plants. The Sinai is inhospitable, and Egypt doesn’t have the technology to develop it, but Israel does. With its new land, Egypt can give it to the Palestinians, make it a state within Egypt, or whatever it wants.
Israel wants land. This is a way of giving it land without harming the Palestinians.
How about we give the Palestinians their homeland back, and israel can be remade in america, since so many of the settlers have american passports, if we're giving away any random country's land to capitulate to this genocidal state?
Your plan is Aesop's Fable, The Mice in Council. See https://aesopsfables.org/F184_The-Mice-in-Council.html
So you agree that the state of israel is a murderous one, and your solution is to give them the land of the people they murder with impugnity and celebrate the deaths of with champagne?
Terrible proposal. I have a better solution: Normal people around the world should keep punishing Zionists. Whether that is opening their heads to the truth and move on, or educate them if possible.
TLDR: The more people see how disgusting Zionists are, like you when you posted this comment in another post: "The difference could be the context. Waving Palestinian flags as part of a protest is different than a winner from Israel displaying the Israeli flag. There’s nothing wrong with an Olympic athlete running around with its nation’s flag after a win," the more they will reject them, bully them, avoid giving them a job, avoid helping them, and so on. I am seeing it happen in my city here in Mexico, the local Jews and people who support Israel are being shamed heavily in public and online, and I personally don't feel like interfering. They can't use the Holocaust or October 7 as a defense or excuse anymore.
Interacting with Zionists fucking sucks. Like, you literally said "there is nothing wrong with celebrating having killed at least 72,000+ innocent people and about 200 journalists as a response to an attack that only killed 1,200 of your people" with your comment about waving the flag. Watching Israel's actions from afar is like watching a big brother abusing its little brothers. A big brother that was literally born with an extreme level of narcissism and psychopathy in its brain, 2 traits of the Dark Triad, the ones that make you a sadist that releases dopamine only when you see others suffer first. That's what we're dealing with everywhere.
And then you look at its past, and it's so weird, how obvious the ape-behavior it is: Israel, which is a White Jew Supremacist project (super clearly now. Mask went off in October 8, when you decided to do more than 70+ October 7s on Palestine), was sooo humiliated by Germany in WWII, another white supremacist project, one that actually convinced the world that "they are the good ones," blue-eyed, blonde, attractive, sexy, like high elves from a fantasy novel, while Jews are always depicted as greedy ugly ass goblins... The fact the USA and most of the world did not really gave a fuck about Jews, they only joined the war to stop the Nazis, not really liberate or save the Jews as we don't really do that anywhere, not with the Uyghurs, or everything done in the Middle East under the excuse it is "to save them from the terrorists" has been an obvious unsuccessful lie. To still think all Muslims have some kind of gene or thing in their culture that makes them hate America or Israel "for no good reason. Magically, out of nowhere, hence the reason we must kill them all!" is just pathetic. It's the worst gamble I have seen an entire culture do. They literally just signed their death. People will remember them the same way they remember those tribes made up of irrational violent cannibals that were eradicated in the past. That's how the Jewish culture and religion will be remembered thanks to their relentless support and loyalty to Netanyahu, and they are too brainwashed with the supremacist ideology, by narcissism and pride, that they refuse to see that, so, they continue to further doom the future of their culture by making everyone hate it today.
Like, dude. I hate Hitler, I hate Nazis so fucking much, I hate MAGAs so much. I am a Mexican Lebanese who lost family in Lebanon, Palestine and here in Mexico to the USA and Israel, yet I am aware that Jew != Zionist. American != MAGA. That there are good chill cool Jews out there, genuine innocent ones, despite what the polls online say. I am capable of giving my hand and helping those who actually care about Humanity as a whole, not just a single culture, group or whatever. Yet, Zionists like you have made me think and whisper to myself, out of anger, out of control and heat of the moment for seeing something so blatantly evil like Zionists celebrating the deaths of babies or Palestinian children, attacking Ms Rachel, dude, Ms Fucking Rachel; it's like attacking Elmo, which you're also doing because he did this..., you have made me think: "What if Hitler was right? What if Hitler was the good guy? What if Nazis, who are bitter they lost, who got recruited by the USA through Operation Paperclip, etc., put Netanyahu there to make Jews look bad and further discredit and attempt to destroy the culture in the long-term?" and so much nonsense like that, and for that, fuck you.
The entire world hates you and you just suffered what you call "the worst crime against Humanity, ever," the Holocaust, no more than 100 years ago; so, you took all that rage and resentment on your smaller, vulnerable brothers, the Arabs and Muslims, through the Nakba, 2 years after the Holocaust ended. Only 2 years later and you were already cosplaying the mustache yourselves. Only 2 years and the rape victim became the rapist like Psychology says it happens. You have never attacked or done anything to the Germans, and I always found that weird. You behave like chimps or apes who respect the "strongest" and attack the weak to climb ranks. It's pathetic, and so is religion, which is being used as an excuse for a lot of this behavior. "This land was promised to us!" my balls, it was not. Jesus never meant that, no holy book implies that shit either. It was some stupid random British politician whose name I forgot who said that to win your vote. And it worked so well, you decided to carry that lie and repeat it until it sounded confidently real so you don't have to admit that you were fooled.
The only culture I have respect for is the entirety of Humanity. If you are someone who wants to see only one culture thrive over others, be it the American one, Mexican, Canadian, English, African, Russian, Jewish, Indian, Chinese, Japanese... Whichever it is, you fucking suck and I think you are worthless. You are not a human being to me unless you are someone who doesn't give a fuck about borders or nations anymore. They are just lines and pieces of land people decided to mark because we are still not ready to live as a community, we still are an empire, divided and whatnot. It sucks, but I understand Humanity is also like an entity, like a person. We all make up its personality, we are all a "piece of God's personality." If we all died, there would be no one to praise God, and if he replaced us with new humans, that'd not be real love. So, we are God. Heaven and hell are what we make Earth to be. And to me, cultures and societies can be analyzed the same way you analyze a human being: when they are children, they are more prone to making mistakes and also come across as cold or brutally honest, because children don't know how to measure right or wrong yet. Today, countries seem to behave like edgy teenagers.
Imagine a caveman during the first years human beings existed or appeared, when there was no language. We were fucking violent, we would rape, pillage, kill; but even those cavemen realized that forming communities and villages was the right answer to survive and live a better life, and thanks to those peaceful, better-hearted cavemen, today we have cities, better tech, air conditioners, computers, videogames, etc., instead of still living in caves like dumb violent animals. It was thanks to those human beings with a drive to build that we are here, not those who only want to destroy, like Zionists or Nazis, who are eugenicists with extra steps. You want to get rid of all black people, brown people, Muslims, Arabs, Africans, Asians too. You want everyone to be white and the same as you. That leads to inbreeding, though. That leads to a boring world with no diversity, no variety, no colors; and you'd still have the exact same problems you have today, but no more Muslims or immigrants to blame because you killed them all, so, you start creating divisions among yourselves: the tall vs the short, hairy vs bald, those with blue eyes, those with certain tones of white skin, etc. You are fucking pathetic, and I am tired of tolerating pathetic intolerant fucks like you. The reality is that, good people need to grow a pair of balls and learn how to be more harsh and punish those who are dragging us back so much, like Netanyahu. If we actually lived in a utopia, someone like Netanyahu would've been punished very harshly by the entire world already.
But it's us. We haven't really punished anyone in the Epstein files, or give a fuck enough to at least listen to what the scientists of Wuhan have to say about the accident they had with Covid, which ended killing what some sources say was minimum 7+ million people around the globe, with others saying it's actually 16 - 35+ million, because it became so hard to report accurate numbers during the pandemic... People still cannot decide whether it was a bat, or an accident in the lab. And if it was an accident in the lab, how come we are not questioning or putting more attention on every single employee of that lab? It's so crazy how easy it was to convince people to ignore such a massive punch. Did we even interview them? Ask them what they think about having caused maybe 30+ million deaths? That is 5x times the Holocaust, in just 2 years mind you, around the entire globe. We are not even sure or heard if they will do something so that doesn't happen again, what the fuck? We let them go so easily, so peacefully, why?
Just accept the fact that Zionism is going to die. No way that garbage, along Judaism, Christianity, maybe Buddhism and all religions will die or become the next Santa Claus, one we use to teach good manners and values to children, but then tell them it was fake or forced. "God is what we make it to be," "you don't need religion to be a good person," etc. I keep hearing nothing but negative things about religions everywhere, everyday. They create idiots that behave like MAGAs. They make religious people sound like perpetual Ruby Frankes. F off
Why Egypt and not Jordan? Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, and Palestine are exactly the same. They're the same people with the same culture, that were only divided by colonial borders drawn by the French and British. The idea of a Palestinian ethnicity is a new phenomenon, it didn't exist before the 1920s. They're Levantese Arabs. Egyptians are pretty distinct from Levantese Arabs. They have their own cuisine, history, dialect, ideas about religion, and so on. Your proposal doesn't make sense on that front alone.
No one cares what Israel wants anymore. Why are you catering to murderers? Could it be that you are on their side?
If someone knocks on your door, panthera, and says they will kill your entire family but they will settle for just eating your little girl, you sound like the type of person to push the girl out the door to them instead of grabbing a weapon and doing whats actually right.
You have to start with ethics and basic human rights, not triangulation and negotiation with what you think evil will be OK with.
A better analogy would be someone offers this person a vacant lot, in exchange this person would own the place I'm living in.
Why are you catering to murderers
But Christians, Jews, and Muslims have been murdering each other in the Holy Land for many centuries.
They're all murderers. What participant has clean hands?
They’re all murderers.
Human beings have an innate right to resist oppression and murder once available peaceful avenues have been tried.
What participant has clean hands?
One side is committing genocide and massive human rights abuses right now. One side is not.
This doesn't disprove his statements though
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