435
submitted 1 month ago by Deceptichum@quokk.au to c/mop@quokk.au
all 39 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] Ratio_Tile 78 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I do take issue with this. Indigenous hunting practices are not really all that sustainable, they're just done in smaller amounts so the waste is less visible. We have the opportunity to use technology to live more sustainably in our environment; corpos just don't want to invest in that.

[-] Rothe@piefed.social 38 points 1 month ago

Not to mention that "indigenous" hunting practices was the cause of extinction of numerous species like the mammoth and similar big mammals.

It is idealisation of primitivism, which is not the answer to our problems in any way.

[-] Klear@quokk.au 8 points 1 month ago

It may not solve our problems, but have you considered the benefits of feeling smug as hell?

[-] GorGor@startrek.website 34 points 1 month ago

not to mention there was a TON of variety in hunting practices as indigenous populations vary widely.

here is an interesting book about the subject (on my to read list) https://archive.org/details/ecologicalindian0000krec

[-] duncan_bayne@lemmy.world 61 points 1 month ago

This is the "noble savage myth" dressed up for modern times as the "ecologically noble savage myth".

Colonialism is bad, yes.

But indigenous people didn't "live in balance with nature". Consider e.g. the massive ecological changes wrought by indigenous Australians, Easter Island, NZ Maori, etc. Megafauna extinction, massive deforestation, etc.

Human beings are human beings, regardless of their level of technological progress.

[-] SARGE@startrek.website 15 points 1 month ago

It's just racism someone dressed up real pretty so they can pat themselves on the back for how enlightened they are.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

But indigenous people didn’t “live in balance with nature”.

They didn't "live in balance" in a way that was significantly different from the Spanish, French, or English colonists or the Africans imported via the slave trade. Or the various plethora of native species they co-habitated with.

But there was a pre-colonial ecological balance. Native agricultural practices were largely sustainable, as evidenced by the centuries of farming and herding that colonial settlers initially discovered and exploited. The Plymouth Rock and Jamestown settlers had no idea how to survive in Massachusetts or Virginia early on, relying heavily on trade until they could figure out the effective farming and fishing practices that would become common. European colonies regularly failed right next door to native communities that flourished.

What "upset the balance" was three-fold

  • Sudden, rapid emigration of colonial settlers fleeing the Thirty Years War. Overwhelmingly composed of younger men (the surplus males of the Old World) with poor health and a mandate to work themselves to death for the benefit of others, these early settlers weren't trying to build a sustainable community. They were often sent over to work as soldiers, miners, or fur harvesters, with the intention of returning or retiring once they'd "made their fortune".

  • The Columbian Exchange of non-native species and diseases, which resulted in mass die-offs of native flora and fauna alike. The arrival of European diseases in America are estimated to have killed between 80% and 95% of native populations, often wiping out entire communities before a single European arrived.

  • Industrialization, particularly in the wake of the Civil War, which introduced petrochemicals and air pollutants responsible for the mass die-off of entire biomes.

All of these can - directly or indirectly - be blamed on European settlement.

[-] duncan_bayne@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Yes, agreed. But that's not how I meant "balance" in that case and neither, I believe, did the OP.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 month ago

equating industrialization with techological process is pretty fuckin eurocentric of you.

[-] duncan_bayne@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Isn't it, though? Would any of the technological - and often scientific - breakthroughs of the 20th and 21st centuries have been possible without industrialisation?

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

since a counterfactual can't be proven, we will probably never know

[-] duncan_bayne@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Okay, but we can say with confidence that they all did require prior industrialisation in the way they panned out, and also, have never happened in any preindustrial society. That's at least a solid hint.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

can say with confidence that they all did require prior industrialisation in the way they panned out

we can only say that they happened after, not that industrialization was necessary

[-] duncan_bayne@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

In every single case, with no counterexamples.

How would you bet $100 on this?

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago
[-] duncan_bayne@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

First non industrialised society to send a person into orbit themselves, and fetch them back alive?

[-] FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world 52 points 1 month ago

This is so condescending

It's also bullshit. There are plenty of examples of indigenous people destroying ecosystems

It's humans.

All humans.

[-] Signtist@bookwyr.me 4 points 1 month ago

Honestly, it's life in general. When trees first evolved, they were essentially an invasive species; nothing at the time could break through the lignin that makes them so tough, and so nothing could eat them for millions of years. They would grow, absorb CO2, die, and just lie there until they got buried, then more would grow in their place and absorb more CO2 over and over until the global levels dipped and the planet got colder, causing an ice age.

Devastation happens every time a species ends up in an environment without any natural predators or other mitigating factors. Life doesn't have a point where it looks around, says "yeah, that's enough" and stops growing - it needs something to keep it in check. Humans just change way faster than any other life ever has, so the problematic traits become more and more problematic, and the natural checks and balances of the world are way too outpaced to do anything about it.

[-] Cypher@aussie.zone 27 points 1 month ago

Terrible take on many levels, this assumes those indigenous populations would never have undergone their own industrial revolutions.

For reasons ranging from ‘noble savage’ to racist implications that they couldn’t if they tried.

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 6 points 1 month ago

To accuse the first nations led Lakota Law Project of racism against themselves is a an actual terrible take.

[-] Klear@quokk.au 6 points 1 month ago

from ‘noble savage’ to racist implications that they couldn’t if they tried

They're the same picture.

[-] punkisundead@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 month ago

This is such a gross misreading of the post lol

It literally says "Indigenous people have shown" and not something about them having some innate characteristics that result in their living in balance with the earth. It should be obvious that their idologiy and culture is meant by the post, as it is exactly that what other can actually learn from many indigenous peoples and it is alao exactly what colonialism is actively destroying

[-] Cypher@aussie.zone 5 points 1 month ago

Absolutely not, without colonialism and given enough time Indigenous peoples will always industrialise to the greatest extent possible given the circumstances.

Industrialisation is in direct opposition to this idealised ‘harmonious’ living with the land.

You’re falling afoul of the noble savage fallacy in assuming that these people would not have changed their culture over time, given enough time, and have industrialised themselves.

[-] punkisundead@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 month ago

You really like to misunderstand the point , dont you? Like of course ideology and culture can change, that was my whole point...

Just because I support the statement "Indigenous people have shown that is possible to live in balance with nature", I dont think this is / was true for every group of indigenous people and that it would stay always like that. Its litetally just a statement that show cases an example of a way of living that humans can have a different role in nature, one that actually strives to keep the balance on earth.

And me believeing that has nothing to do with the idea of the noble savage, its just an assesment of a way of living that can be studied and maybe even emulated.

[-] Cypher@aussie.zone 2 points 1 month ago

You can rephrase it as many times as you want, I understood what you said and I’ve already replied to it.

[-] UsernameHere@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

Didn’t indigenous people fight over land and attack each other to take land?

[-] Mitchie151@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

Yes? What's your point? Was the land irreversibly damaged by their fighting over land? Surely you can't be trying to compare the ecological impacts tribal warfare to modern industry?

[-] SomeoneSomewhere@lemmy.nz 11 points 1 month ago

The argument is not that they chose not to harm the land, but that they simply couldn't significantly harm the land, and there usually wasn't any incentive to, because they couldn't get at anything under the land anyway.

About the only option was intentionally setting first/grass fires, and that happened plenty.

[-] commiunism@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago

https://ruthlesscriticism.com/environmentalism.htm is a banger article that talks about this, you can bet that whoever says "humanity is responsible for environmental destruction!!" without any care in the world for the existence of classes and their relations as being a secret hitlerite deep in the narratives

Also, to say how tribal primitive societies and its inhabitants were actually "ones with nature" is unhelpful. Not only is the idea veering dangerously close to racism/eugenics, implication being that indigenous were somehow genetically natural and primitive/backwards while peoples of the civilization are naturally cultural, civilized but destructive (in reality it being just a matter of current mode of production and historical development), but there's also evidence to the contrary given their lack in knowledge and/or limits in their actual interests of preservation.

[-] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

Billionaires are the virus.

[-] HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 month ago

Part of reconciliation ought to be us begging for help restoring balance to nature, and letting indigenous people benefit the most financially from green energy/ecological initiatives.

It's extra good because the begging part will infuriate the far right, and the watching non whites get rich off green energy will probably just explode their heads. It's a win-win-win.

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 8 points 1 month ago

We need to do away with the financial part entirely, it’s what is killing us.

[-] TrojanRoomCoffeePot@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Shoutout for the snapback. Sick and tired of people quoting fucking Dwight Schrute as if a piece of shit sitcom character were an ancient Greek philosopher and calling humans a disease were insightful.

[-] Lumisal@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

In fairness thinking Dwight was right is like thinking Palpatine is a democracy loving guy because the Senate voted for him.

[-] lemmie689@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 month ago

Everybody's digging it, the indigenous are digging it too. Plenty of money to be dug up.

a 'unicorn event' in mining

'a treasure chest of all sorts of critical minerals,'

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/norway-house-magnesium-mining-9.6985096

[-] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

Tell that to the mammoths...

this post was submitted on 20 Mar 2026
435 points (100.0% liked)

Memes of Production

1567 readers
255 users here now

Seize the Memes of Production

An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the “ML” influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.

Rules:
Be a decent person.
No racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, zionism/nazism, and so on.

Other Great Communities:

founded 3 months ago
MODERATORS