May as well buy burgers in the US, since you already paid for most of it through taxes! : memes

[-] usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml 114 points 1 year ago

It's worth noting that in countries like US, it's really only things like beyond burgers and impossible meat that cost more. It doesn't require eating those for a plant-based diet nor are people typically eating those every meal, is why plant-based diets generally have lower costs

Compared to meat eaters, results show that “true” vegetarians do indeed report lower food expenditures

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921800915301488?via%3Dihub

It found that in high-income countries:

• Vegan diets were the most affordable and reduced food costs by up to one third.

• Vegetarian diets were a close second.

• Flexitarian diets with low amounts of meat and dairy reduced costs by 14%.

• By contrast, pescatarian diets increased costs by up to 2%.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study

[-] ericbomb@lemmy.world 45 points 1 year ago

Oh yeah I 100% spend less on food as a vegetarian, because black beans/lentils are such wonderful cheap sources of protein.

But sometimes I want like the premade like meat crumbles or burgers, and those cost more usually.

[-] match@pawb.social 13 points 1 year ago

But do you spend less because you're vegetarian, or because you don't have options for spending money at fast food / restaurants?

[-] ericbomb@lemmy.world 42 points 1 year ago

I mean a pound of beef costs $4.

A pound of raw lentils like a $1.

Lentils are more calorie dense.

Lentils are more protein dense.

Black beans are in similar camp.

Rice and wheat products are cheaper per calorie, but lack the protein.

So yeah, it's just cheaper to be a vegetarian, even with massive beef subsidiaries. But veggie patties are still more expensive because of processing and they are smaller batches.

[-] scala@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago

To add to this as a vegan of 10+ years. To supplement the lack of protein, I use pea based protein powder for a meal. And add hemp seeds for other meals/snacks during the day.

We occasionally get the processed grounds/meat substitutes only when they are on sale. Which would be 2lbs for $6 for a gardien/beyond/impossible alternative to animal flesh in pounds.

[-] blanketswithsmallpox@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Unfortunately the difference between eating meat or lentils is having to eat lentils lol.

[-] Habahnow@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago

Lol, lentils are freaking bomb. Its a win win for me, I can eat bomb ass lentils, and save money.

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[-] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Yeah people really don’t believe me when I talk about how much I save by being a low fish pescatarian. A can of beans is cheaper than equivalent beef or chicken as are mushrooms. Peanut butter sandwiches are a cheaper lunch than lunch meat ones. And I’m not hurting for protein because beans are full of the stuff

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[-] Hello_there@kbin.social 97 points 1 year ago

Reminder that farmers can spend something like a dollar per cow per year to allow their cattle to roam through public lands to cause erosion, shit in streams, spread giardia, and give farmers reasons to kill coyotes and wolves.

[-] Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago

Also a shame that cow farts emit a lot of methane.

[-] Miqo@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They surpsingly release most methane through burping, not farting. Even more surprising is that they burp so much methane that it is measurable from space

Edit: boost isn't displaying links with custom titles. Here it is: https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/30/us/cow-burps-methane-space-climate-trnd/index.html

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[-] Freylint@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago

The solution to bovine methane emissions is to install a cowalitic converter inside their mufflers. Just like we do with quad udder milk exhaust collectors.

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[-] The_v@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is mostly done in the western U.S. It also takes around 40 acres of land/cow. In drier areas it takes 200 acres per cow.

In an irrigated field, with annual crops, and rotational grazing, we can feed 2-4 cows/acre depending on the location.

We do not need to use 95% of the land we use for pasture.

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[-] TvanBuuren@feddit.nl 49 points 1 year ago

Here it's not just that.

The raw resources and production costs of oat milk is like, €0.30 per 2 liter.

They sell it at €2.40.

Healthy is capitalism here.

[-] tja@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago

I believe they also put a lot of resources into research

[-] ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago

Oat milk is just oats blended in water. The research is minimal. The marketing is where they put most of their money.

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[-] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 46 points 1 year ago

Never say America can't afford to feed its people. It can, it just prefers to prop up failing and immoral industry instead.

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[-] Nastybutler@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago

Corn farmers have entered the chat

[-] ericbomb@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago

Sorry corn farmers, this is about people food. Growing fuel doesn't really count.

Growing corn that is only usable as animal feed counts as part of how beef industry is being propped up by the government.

So yeah... I think only one or two corn farmers will be left in the chat after that.

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[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 41 points 1 year ago

If you learn how to make your own patties from scratch it's pretty cheap - or to save time you can do what I do and eat beans directly from the air fryer 🤤

[-] match@pawb.social 17 points 1 year ago

oh damn I have an air fryer

recipe?

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 42 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I actually just rinse off canned beans, spray them with vegetable oil, toss em in at 400F for 8-12 minutes, then shake them in a baggie with salt and spices. Or mix them in a bowl with hot sauce. Or use them as a topping for rice. Or throw them in stir fry. Or sauteed onions and bell peppers, then put them on tortillas.

God damn I love air fried beans

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[-] SexyTimeSasquatch@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago

Oh man, staple crops are subsidized waaaaaayyy more heavily than beef. Some of this grain goes to the beef industry as feed, so it is indirectly supported by taxes. But the reality is that the soy, barley, beans, or whatever else is in that veggie burger are subsidized directly and more extensively.

[-] ericbomb@lemmy.world 50 points 1 year ago

Where in the WORLD did you hear that bit of propaganda?

https://agriculturefairnessalliance.org/news/2020-farm-subsidies/

https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf

https://www.aier.org/article/the-true-cost-of-a-hamburger/

https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/02/usda-livestock-subsidies-near-50-billion-ewg-analysis-finds

I can't even find any source saying more money is spent on any crop than on beef. It seems like it's totally made up. The numbers vary because it's hard to pin down, but I can't find a source saying anything besides "most subsidiaries go towards beef and dairy"

[-] usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Many of those types of crops used for feed aren't really aligned all that well. Corn for instance isn't going used so heavily in a plant-based diet as it is subsidized (corn is the most subsidized crop in the US). There is also separate food-grade and feed-grade soybeans. 90% of US soy production is going to feed (and not to mention a good portion of the other 10% is going to soybean oil which is not super helpful for a plant-based meat)

90% of U.S. soybeans produced are used as a high-quality protein source for animal feed

https://soygrowers.com/key-issues-initiatives/key-issues/other/animal-ag/

Further, they are still getting massive amounts of direct subsidies

The Department of Agriculture has spent almost $50 billion in subsidies for livestock operators since 1995, according to an EWG analysis.

By contrast, since 2018 the USDA has spent less than $30 million to support plant-based and other alternative proteins that may produce fewer greenhouse gases and may require less land than livestock.

https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/02/usda-livestock-subsidies-near-50-billion-ewg-analysis-finds

Also worth mentioning that beans are not particularly highly subsidized unless you are counting soybeans mentioned earlier.

[-] ThePenitentOne@discuss.online 29 points 1 year ago

Absolutely fucked up that your taxes go to supporting animal abuse whether you like it or not. Although, arguably worse is how many people don't even give the animals' suffering a second thought and just take the selfish path. Even fucking stupider is that chicken can be bought at the same price as tofu per kg. Like what the shit? Stop subsidising it. It's environmentally destructive and incredibly immoral.

[-] LemmysMum@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Don't give a fuck. Tax the rich, then we can worry about what I eat.

Veganism is class warfare.

[-] ericbomb@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

I don't think you understand what class warfare is.

The fact that it's co-opted by rich people as trying to convince you that environmental disasters they cause is your problem doesn't change any points made by actual vegans, or the fact that it's far far cheaper. Even with all the subsidies given out, a pound of black beans/lentils has more calories/protein than a pound of beef, and will cost 1/5 the price. Sure if I want to splurge and buy a premade veggie burger it's more expensive, but generally it's just way more affordable.

[-] LemmysMum@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think you're ignoring the general capacity for vegans to maintain nutritionally complete diets without supplements.

And last time I checked, the rich don't concern themselves with the cost of nutrition. You're so deep in the class warfare you can't even see the front lines.

[-] ericbomb@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

B12 is the only thing, and we can buy food that reinforced with it so no big deal. Many cereals have it added, and this can not be overstated, it's the only thing that is problematic for vegans naturally. I'm not even a vegan, but B12 is added to all sorts of foods these days.

Also if that's the case, then eating meat is class warfare. While people are starving, we are growing food to feed to live stock, to get a food people think tastes better. For every 1000 calories of food fed to cattle, you'll get less than 100 calories of meat. There is not enough land on the planet for every person to eat meat the way folks in the US do.

https://www.globalagriculture.org/report-topics/meat-and-animal-feed.html#:~:text=Nearly%2060%25%20of%20the%20world's,kilometres%20of%20land%20to%20produce. "Nearly 60% of the world's agricultural land is used for beef production, yet beef accounts for less than 2% of the calories that are consumed throughout the world. "

That 60% is counting all the corn and soy agriculture that is fed straight to beef. The world is not big enough for humans to eat as much as meat as people do. As a delicacy? Sure. But eating it every day? Multiple meals? Part of the world will always starve if we do. There is nothing in meat that we can't get in other ways, not a single thing. So in all honesty if we want a stable world, we will need to figure out our addiction to meat.

[-] LemmysMum@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's a lot of words to miss the point.

Also, choline. Also, numerous micronutrients. Also, nutrient density and bioavailability. Also, non-arable grazing land makes up a large part of that 60% (see Australia). Also, locally sustainable nutrient complete. Also, not subject to needing supplementation from foods only available due to international commerce. Also, where do you think they grow the crops for extracting nutrients for supplements? Also, meat is the battery mass storage of the food world, you can charge it up, it's portable, easy to keep, won't spoil until harvested.

But go on, tell me again how the poor have access to nutrition and that it's not class warfare. Starvation must suck on a full stomach.

[-] ericbomb@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Literally every single thing you said is just factually wrong.

Choline is bountiful and not a concern https://www.pcrm.org/news/blog/clearing-choline-confusion. "Micronutrients" I'd love to know which ones. B12 also is in some vegetables, but vegetarians/vegans like to take the supplements just because it's the only one they "might" not get enough of.

Most of that 60% is used for growing corn and soy used to feed live stock, because letting them graze is inefficient. The vast majority of animals butchered for meat are from factory farms, which are powered by corn and soy. Which could have just been human grown soy and sweetcorn, but instead it makes more money to grow cattle grade. https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/us-factory-farming-estimates

Also they don't just keep fully grown beef cattle sitting around my friend. They slaughter them on a tight schedule to maximize profit. They don't function as batteries, they are treated as crops in factories where they are born and die on an optimal schedule. Keeping around a full grown cow marked for beef is a GIANT waste of money, because it needs food, water, and housing despite not going to grow much bigger.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/slaughter-cattle-grades-and-standards

And if meat is the food storage of the world how is it a measly 2% of calories consumed? It feeds next to no one. If it vanished, people would moan and grown, but basically no one would go hungry because it feeds just SO few people on the grand scheme of thing. In fact, if all cows vanished, we'd have vastly more food as the vast amounts of corn, grain, and soy that were going to be fed to cows at a 10:1 return would be sold to people, and instead of growing feed corn the next harvest would be food humans actually like.

I just can not stress enough that they eat 20X as many calories, most of which was grown in fields that could have been from humans, as they provide when eaten. The idea that they are grazing, just simply isn't true. Letting them graze is an inefficient use of land. https://cbey.yale.edu/our-stories/disrupting-meat

Not to mention you complain that it's only available due to international commerce... yet many countries import meat as well. https://beef2live.com/story-world-beef-imports-ranking-countries-0-106900#:~:text=China%20accounts%20for%20roughly%2030,South%20Korea%20and%20Hong%20Kong.

You're right, it is class warfare, rich countries should stop eating meat and instead focus fields on crops that are 20X more efficient until everyone has more food than they can possibly eat. https://www.arktide.org/how-much-food-can-we-grow/#:~:text=On%20land%2C%20soybeans%20can%20produce,18%20million%20calories%20per%20acre.

I'd be down for pescatarians though if we actually got around to taking care of the oceans and doing sustainable farming.

If you can't provide sources in a response I will just have to ignore as a troll though. Because every point you made was just... factually incorrect. I'm hoping you just heard those things somewhere else and repeated them without checking and didn't make them up to be a bother.

[-] LemmysMum@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Choline is bountiful and not a concern “Micronutrients” I’d love to know which ones

It’s been common knowledge for decades that maintaining a nutritionally balanced vegan or vegetarian diet is not as simple as just eliminating meat as doing so causes a severe lack of several key nutrients and vitamins. The main offenders are vitamin B12, Omega 3, vitamin D, Zinc, and Choline. Some of these can be accounted for by increasing variety in the diet but others require supplements for a multitude of reasons, either recommended daily consumption cannot be met due to self imposed dietary restrictions, a lack of nutritionally rich sources, or simply how much food you can eat.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8746448/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7073751/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561420306567
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/15/9/2129

Nutritional deficiencies caused by incorrectly managed vegan diets are why doctors in Italy and Belgium are pushing for it to become illegal to feed children vegan diets, because the number of malnourished and dead children of vegan parents are rising in those nations.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/

Choline is a nutrient that was identified in the 1800’s but wasn’t known as essential to human development until the late 90’s, it’s found primarily in animal protein and severely impacts brain development in young children and has ongoing effects on mental capability and brain function during adulthood and deficiencies have been linked to multiple memory related diseases. According to nutritional data from the US National Institute of Health on Choline density in foods a vegan would have to consume two and a half cups of soybeans every day to meet minimum RDI for an adult as opposed to 300g of animal protein. The next nearest vegan source of choline is chickpeas which have 50% lower Choline density than soybeans (5 cups a day to meet RDI!)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4422379/
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Choline-HealthProfessional/

And if meat is the food storage of the world how is it a measly 2% of calories consumed?

Source? Are those numbers including livestock consumption of non-meat products? Pet consumption of meat products? You bitch about not sourcing information when none were requested then drop that bullshit with no source?

I just can not stress enough that they eat 20X as many calories that could have been from humans.

Whole soy beans make up less than 6% of an American production cow's diet, they can't handle more, the rest is made up from industrial food waste such as soybean meal from soymilk production, beet pulp from sugar production, cotton seeds from clothes production, brewers grains from alcohol production, citrus pulp from fruit production, corn gluten from corn syrup production, candy and bakery waste. Numbers from non waste food consumption in cows is as low as 2-3%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding
https://nre.tas.gov.au/Documents/cattlefeed.pdf

The idea that they are grazing, just simply isn’t true. Letting them graze is an inefficient use of land.

https://www.agriculture.gov.au/sites/default/files/sitecollectiondocuments/natural-resources/soils/national-factsheet-farm-practices-grazing.pdf
https://www.redmeatgreenfacts.com.au/environment/land-use/land-use-faqs/just-3-of-australias-land-mass-is-suitable-for-cropping/
https://wwf.org.au/what-we-do/food/beef/
https://www.csiro.au/en/work-with-us/industries/agriculture/sustainable-food-and-agriculture-systems/understanding-and-navigating-global-change-in-our-food-systems/grazing-systems-in-sustainable-food-futures
https://www.climateworkscentre.org/land-use-futures/australias-land-use/
http://era.daf.qld.gov.au/id/eprint/4249/
https://landcareaustralia.org.au/landcarefarming/innovationsinag/regenerativerangelands/
https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/dry-seasons-and-drought/grazing-native-vegetation-and-revegetation-farms-%E2%80%93-western-australia
https://www.ari.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0021/36084/ARI-Technical-Report-252-Understanding-the-relationship-between-grazing-and-wetland-condition.pdf

Not to mention you complain that it’s only available due to international commerce… yet many countries import meat as well

Which has higher caloric density and thus is more environmentally sustainable than transporting the same nutritional value in produce. It's like you want to burn more fossil fuels in the shipping industry than necessary.

You’re right, it is class warfare, rich countries should stop eating meat and instead focus fields on crops that are 20X more efficient until everyone has more food than they can possibly eat.

Crop management, pesticides, and harvesting kill far more animals of varying species for the same equivalent nutritional value of a single head of cattle. Animals are also often raised on land that can't be used for crops turning useless land into sustainable food resources, here in Australia over 70% of all our cattle are grass fed on non-arable land that can’t be used for farming crops and that soil health requires both crop rotation and animal biodiversity otherwise you’re not going to be able to grow vegetables there for long. The only reason a healthy nutritionally balanced vegan or vegetarian diet is even remotely possible is due to globalised trade and access to internationally produced and shipped vegetables. To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally.

Here’s a “fun” fact, first world demand for fruit and grain variety has out priced primary sources of food for local populations in third world countries including things like lentils, quinoa, and avocados.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa
https://thetab.com/uk/2020/02/12/tofu-vegan-food-staple-bad-for-the-earth-143688?fbclid=IwAR1aBfNlh_OPSrF8odvUf6O5X14zE_VbCdXrn-a87AGip2zhXsohzMnNcHk

If you can’t provide sources in a response I will just have to ignore as a troll though. Because every point you made was just… factually incorrect. I’m hoping you just heard those things somewhere else and repeated them without checking and didn’t make them up to be a bother.

If self-awareness was a disease, you'd be the healthiest person alive.

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[-] trailing9@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago

Or vegans are more affluent and locked in so the take what they can get.

[-] usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml 27 points 1 year ago

Americans earning less than $30,000 annually are more likely to identify as vegetarian. Nine percent of this group say they are vegetarian, a higher percentage than is true of Americans in the two higher-income groups. Differences in levels of veganism among these three groups are not statistically significant.

Gallop poll

[-] Zoboomafoo@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

That's me, involuntarily vegetarian, inveg?

[-] match@pawb.social 15 points 1 year ago

When the people shall have nothing more to eat, they shall ~~eat the rich~~ become inveg

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[-] Smoogs@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Depends. If you are eating non processed vegetables the costs goes way below even burgers.

[-] ericbomb@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Oh yeah for sure! Just sometimes I wanna go to a place and order a similar looking thing as the people around me without paying a ton more XD

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[-] lnee@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

Yes I could stop eating a pound a day but keto and vegetarian don't mix well

[-] Nioxic@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 1 year ago

Beef is more nutritious though.

So giving subsidies for that means more people can afford good nutritious food.

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