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Would that not piss of Jesus? It came to me after watching the pope rap from WKUK.

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[-] markovs_gun@lemmy.world 25 points 3 days ago

ITT- a lot of people who are very confidently wrong even about basic facts about this.

Jesus flipping tables wasn't aimed at the priests and church authorities, but at people who were based in the outer area of the temple selling supplies to make sacrifices and offerings prescribed in Jewish law (see the book of Leviticus for more descriptions of these sacrifices). Jewish law at the time required a lot of animal sacrifices and monetary offerings at the Temple, and Jesus didn't seem to have any issues with these- after all, they were a core part of the religion at the time and again, the Torah explicitly states that priests are supposed to live off of Temple offerings (note that in this passage the priestly class are referred to as "Sons of Aaron"). So it would have been odd for Jesus, as someone who at least according to the Bible was very knowledgeable about scripture and Jewish law, would have been surprised at that aspect.

What he was mad about was the commerce occurring around this system. The Gospel descriptions of this event discuss "moneychangers" and people selling doves. These are people who exchanged Roman currency for traditional Jewish currency (which is what ancient monetary offerings were denominated in) and sold animals (and based on other writings in the Torah, probably spiced cakes as well) that could be sacrificed in the Temple on the purchaser's behalf. As for why this made Jesus mad, that is up for debate. The obvious answer is that it represents greed and people making money off religion, but the large amount of sacrifices required by Jewish law at the time really encouraged this behavior just from a practical standpoint. Myself I think he would have been completely fine with it had it been happening right outside the Temple instead, but the Temple was considered an especially holy place, where God's presence literally descended down to Earth to be with mankind in the innermost portion, which each concentric ring acting as a sort of "air lock" for ritual impurity.

So the problem was not that the priests were making money from religion (again, this was required by Jewish law at the time) but that these other people were hanging out in the Temple treating it as a marketplace rather than as an exceptionally holy and highly ritualized space. Understanding this is kind of difficult for modern people because we don't really treat religion the same as people did back then, and especially from a Christian standpoint we tend to view religion as a matter of personal belief and not impurity that occurs as a natural consequence of things that happen and that must be cleansed before encounters with the divine.

[-] FearMeAndDecay@literature.cafe 2 points 3 days ago

This is a very good explanation. To answer the specific question about modern offering plates, those are fine bc it’s not selling anything, it’s a free will offering to support the church. Of course, some churches put a lot more pressure on their congregants and basically force them to give beyond their means by saying shit like “God demands you give x amount” or “buying salvation” and stuff, and that behavior would likely get them whipped by Jesus too. Unfortunately the people who do stuff like that, don’t actually care about Jesus and his teachings

[-] glasratz@feddit.org 9 points 3 days ago

It can be even funnier. I'm an atheist, but I go to church regularly with my wife. Some weeks ago the priest read that part of the bible - and everyone turned their head, looking at the stands in the back of the church where they were going to sell fair trade products later that day.

[-] Mediocre_Bard@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

They still sold that shit, didn't they?

[-] DrFunkenstein@sh.itjust.works 109 points 5 days ago

Specifically, he flipped the tables of money lenders and people selling stuff. Donating a tithe has been a part of Abrahamic religion since the Old Testament.

[-] bagsy@lemmy.world 28 points 4 days ago

The bible is long and contradictory. its a bit like palm reading, it can say whatever you want it to say.

[-] LordCrom@lemmy.world 26 points 4 days ago

If someone asks, "What would Jesus do?" Remember that flipping tables and whipping a bitch are viable options.

[-] axexrx@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago
[-] Snowpix@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 days ago

And cursing fig trees for not bearing fruit out-of-season.

[-] cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 days ago

Never was religious, can you give context?

[-] Mediocre_Bard@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Lake, K. (1911). Codex Sinaiticus Petropolitanus, Oxford (An old ass version of the bible from c. 400 C.E.

Matthew 21:12-13

12 And Jesus entered into the temple of God, and cast out all that sold and bought in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers, and the seats of those that sold doves,

13 and said to them: It is written: My house shall be called a house of prayer; but you make it a den of robbers.

So, Jesus showed up at the temple and "cast out" anyone engaged in commerce, calling them robbers.

Of the four apostles that mention the incident (Matthew, Luke, Mark, and John), only John indicates that a whip was used.

13 And the Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And he found in the temple those that sold oxen, and sheep, and doves, and the moneychangers sitting; 15 and having made a scourge of cords, he drove all out of the temple, the sheep also and the oxen, and poured out the money of the money-changers, and overturned the tables; 16 and to those that sold doves he said: Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house a house of merchandise. 17 The disciples remembered that it is written: Zeal for thy house consumes me.

The scourge of cords, with scourge meaning "a whip used as an instrument of punishment".

Saved you 17 Google searches. /s

[-] How_do_I_computah@lemmy.world 59 points 5 days ago

They had turned the church into a marketplace. So if you're in it just for the money then yeah you're a problem.

Jesus actually sent out the disciples to teach without any money and expected them to live on the generosity of the people they taught so that's where the collection plate likely originates from.

[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 22 points 5 days ago

And just like everything in the Bible, they take a grain of truth and turn it into a multimillion dollar pyramid scheme .... or they use it as a weapon to go after people and groups they don't like.

Personally I'm non religious, I think they're all nuts. The origins of these religions might have started out with some noble goals that might have been for the good of humanity ... but now it's just a system of power, money and control to manipulate a gullible audience.

[-] How_do_I_computah@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago

Yeah, there are definitely bad people out there trying to take advantage of Christians and make money off them. I think that's exactly what Jesus was mad about. If Jesus was born today he would probably be chasing televangelist's phone operators away from their desks with a whip and flipping computer desks of the people trying to scam Christian grandmas.

Like any other organization if you look hard enough and if it's what you're looking for then you can see people doing bad things but I do not think organized Christian religion is bad as a whole.

[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 9 points 4 days ago

I'm Indigenous Canadian and my parents were victims of the Residential School system in Canada in the 50s, 60s .... residential 'schools' which were literal torture centers for Indigenous children run by Christian organizations.

From my point of view .... Christian religion is bad as a whole.

[-] How_do_I_computah@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago

I'm very sorry about what happened to your parents and in turn the effects these schools had on you and your family. From everything I've heard the Canadian government has treated the indigenous people terribly.

Nothing in Jesus's teachings or the New Testament says "Running torture centers is what you should do".

There are a lot of bad people who want to claim what they're doing is what God told them to do because it makes it easier to get away with or easier for them to stomach themselves.

[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 5 points 4 days ago

At this point in history, the image of Jesus Christ is a caricature of what he is supposed to represent. He is just an image and idea that is worshipped and that is all. No one cares about his teachings or his ideas, they just care about his image, praising him and getting their free ticket to heaven.

In essence, the image of Jesus Christ has become their golden calf that people mindlessly pray to and worship without thinking or wondering about what he actually represents.

[-] JennyLaFae 1 points 3 days ago

I do think the Abrahamic religions are bad as a whole, and things like the splintering of Christianity that allows everyone to go "oh no, that bad stuff isn't MY Christianity" is just useful idiots providing cover for abusers.

[-] CXORA@aussie.zone 2 points 4 days ago

Jesus was a cult leader. The only reason hed dislike those other cult leaders is theyre competition.

[-] woop_woop@lemmy.world 11 points 5 days ago

Tithing is in the old testament. It's from a long time before Señor Christ.

[-] How_do_I_computah@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago

Christian religions follow the teachings of Jesus so if Jesus had said something contrary to the idea of tithing it is worth noting. Likewise if he had done something to reaffirm it then that is worth noting.

[-] woop_woop@lemmy.world 7 points 5 days ago

Christian religions flow the teachings of Jesus who followed/was aware of/modified the teachings of Judaism, which already had centuries of tithing already established. Dude didn't invent it.

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[-] SPRUNT@lemmy.world 21 points 4 days ago

Modern churches have nothing to do with Jesus.

[-] BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 3 points 3 days ago

Cherry-picking The Bible is standard religious practice. Couldn't make money otherwise.

It's a question of: what are they doing with the money from the collection plate? Are they using it to maintain the church building, paying the people working for the church a (modest) salary and providing support for those in need? That's not what Jesus had a problem with, he would be for that. Are they telling people "God only loves you if you buy X" and using the money to get rich? That's what Jesus had a problem with. So it's not collecting money that's the problem, it's how it's done and what is done with the collected money.

[-] Triasha@lemmy.world 10 points 4 days ago

If you think your church is doing good work, you give.

The church I grew up in closed for lack of funds. The preacher never lived large, they weren't taking more than people wanted to give.

I would never give money to a mega church, but I have donated to UU churches as an adult.

[-] MidsizedSedan@lemmy.world 15 points 4 days ago

It to help the christian missionaries across the world, but not the neighbour sleeping on a mattress on their porch.

Its to help replace the church carpets that the pastor doesn't like, not help the homeless community who is living under the bridge in the city.

I may be a biased, unhappy, ex-church goer, but that's what I saw

[-] leftascenter@jlai.lu 3 points 3 days ago

Acts 4 along mark 10 are pretty clear that Christians are supposed to give it all and live in a community where "as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto each, according as any one had need."

This is also supported by the teachings that literally states rich people won't go to heaven (unless they give it away).

So Jesus and early christians were all about living in a commune.

Now, most modern churches come from a roman imperial implementation of an uprising religion at a time where different temple within polytheism were associated with concurring political factions leading to unstability. Christianity was authorized, then chosen as a state religion and accordingly structured. Things branched out from there, becoming a central part of international politics throughout the middle ages, then different flavors of christianity raising from protestanism (which remain globally a minority compared to catholiscism), but they are all structured towards their own goals rather than Jesus's teachings.

[-] amzd@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

He called out the practice of killing animals for money, specifically calling the priests murderers during the event you reference. Not much of that spirit left in modern churches.

[-] CompassRed@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 3 days ago

That's not true. He denounced them for price gouging gentiles who came to the temple to make sacrifices. He didn't call them murderers - he called them thieves.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21%3A12-13%2CMark+11%3A15-18&version=NASB

[-] amzd@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

He calls them “λῃστής”

Even in the source you linked that is translated to robber. To rob means “stealing using force or violence”. Who were the priests using violence against you think? Their clients or animals?

[-] CompassRed@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 2 days ago

It can also mean to overcharge someone, which is likely how it is used here. The exorbitant price of sacrificial animals is multiply attested. The poor couldn't afford it

I'm not sure how your interpretation is meant to work out. I don't see how people would be compelled to give their belongings to someone if the threat is directed towards random sacrificial animals. Are you trying to say that they were stealing from the sacrificial animals themselves, and that's why he called them robbers? It doesn't make any sense to me.

[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 18 points 4 days ago

I suspect that piece of the bible is carefully ignored in the greediest churches. It's not like the faithful read the fucking thing anyway

[-] melsaskca@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 days ago

There are a lot of good words in the good book but if you look around at most of the Christian church-goers they are golden-calf people.

[-] moonshadow@slrpnk.net 15 points 4 days ago

Jesus was a dirty homeless activist with no love for the institutions of his time. Would genuinely fit in better in under any overpass than in any church. Cool dude.

[-] How_do_I_computah@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

I think this is pretty right in spirit. I think he did have love for the institutions of his time but did disagree with them and with the religious leaders of the time. If they could have comes to their senses he would welcome them too.

[-] DarkFuture@lemmy.world 15 points 4 days ago

Pssst....modern Christians aren't actually Christian.

[-] Wilco@lemmy.zip 12 points 4 days ago

He flipped the table basically because they were doing business out of a church.

[-] MedicPigBabySaver@lemmy.world 14 points 5 days ago

Religion is the largest scam against humanity.

[-] aeternum 1 points 3 days ago

When one person believes a delusion, it's schizophrenia. When millions do, that's religion.

[-] Canconda@lemmy.ca 12 points 5 days ago

Jesus wouldn't gripe the practice of tithing so much as what the modern church does (or mainly doesn't do) with the money. Obviously if that money was spent helping people he would be cool with it.

There's even a bit in the bible where he say the poor woman who tithed the 1 penny she could spare was giving more than the rich people who gave much more.

[-] LuxSpark@lemmy.cafe 7 points 5 days ago

How do they explain? Some variation on God spoke to me.

[-] pixxelkick@lemmy.world 6 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Naw.

For context at this time the Jewish people were under strict roman rule and oppression, treated as second class citizens. And a lot of Jewish folks had stopped giving a fuck about respecting their own culture/religion.

Jesus shows up to this huge, extremely sanctious, temple. It's not just any temple, its one of THE temples for Jewish worship.

Inside he finds that the romans+Jewish merchants have pretty much turned it into an animal pen + marketplace. It's filthy, there's animals shitting all over, there's people doing business, people are being extremely disrespectful.

So yeah Jesus goes apeshit and starts flipping tables, chasing ppl out of the temple, whipping people and animals, basically being like "all you assholes gtfo how dare you"

It's less about the money stuff and more about the donkeys actively shitting on the floor and ppl spitting on the temple.

Contextually its likely people were doing stuff like pissing on the wall (no bathroom in a makeshit marketplace, what do you think would happen), graffiti'ing, spitting, throwing garbage on the floor, so on and so on.

Now, originally, this business made sense. Specifically, pilgrims traveling a long distance needed to stop for some key stuff on arrival.

Pilgrims needed animals and approved currency for sacrifices, which they'd do at the temple, so setting up to do that stuff right at the temple made sense.

But what happened is a simple lil currency exchange + buy a sacrifice stall exploded to be a whole marketplace as seedier and more sus ppl moved in, and soon the original point was lost.

It probably originally just started as one guy just exchanging coins and selling goats/chickens outside the temple as a legit business.

As further insult/context, consider the fact that once they moved this process to be in the temple, it meant they were controlling people's access to worship.

Effectively it became a state of "you have to pay to pray" at the temple, and not a tithe, but more like literally having to pay a bunch of money to even get the right coins, the approved animals, etc.

You couldn't bring your own stuff now.

You know how movie theaters wouldn't let you bring in your own food, and would charge you an arm and a leg for anything? Yeah, think of it like that.

[-] DreamAccountant@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago

It's all fiction. None of it is real. The character jesus was not a real person, and he didn't have superpowers.

Stop writing stupid fictional jebus fanfiction in your head. Find better, less hate filled, fiction.

[-] LesserAbe@lemmy.world 11 points 5 days ago

I'm an atheist, but if you read about Jesus specifically you won't find a lot of hate.

[-] Chozo@fedia.io 9 points 5 days ago

The character jesus was not a real person

I think it's generally accepted that Jesus did exist, as his baptism and crucifixion were documented by third parties at the time.

[-] Manjushri@piefed.social 6 points 4 days ago

All that means is that a person named Jesus may have existed. But that has no bearing on events described in the Bible. It's like saying you found a birth certificate for a Clark Kent from the 1930's so that means Superman really existed.

[-] nondescripthandle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Well if Superman modeled itself as a true story and the Clark Kent you found was the person who inspired the story then yeah you did. It's not Clarks fault the author lied. Historians don't only think 'some dude name jesus exists'. They think that the specific Jesus depicted in the bible was based on a real person. You can be against religion and recognize a historical consensus.

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[-] tiredofsametab@fedia.io 5 points 5 days ago

Assume that this is an apocalyptic Jew before rabbinic judaeism. That should frame thinks a bit better. The problem, at least as I understand it, is people doing commerce, particularly for a profit, in a sacred space. I do t think the money was the problem in and of itself, but rather the execution and motive. In another story, biblical Jesus tells someone of wealth and power that what he needs to do is give all of that up and he was quite miffed (in a very tldr telling)

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this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2025
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