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You're going to make up the funding shortfall, right? (sh.itjust.works)

submitted 3 weeks ago by sbv@sh.itjust.works to c/canada@lemmy.ca

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The federal and provincial governments have been underfunding universities for decades. Recently, universities were able to start recruiting foreign students to make up for the shortfall, but it looks like that money tap will be turned down. It doesn't look like there's a plan to make up for it.

At the same time, the feds want to

recruit more than 1,000 top international researchers to Canada, with the budget injecting up to $1.7-billion into a suite of recruitment measures.

That'll be tough if universities see their income crater.

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[-] Zamboni_Driver@lemmy.ca 19 points 3 weeks ago

O boo hoo, Universities don't need unlimited growth. So what if they make less this year than they did last year. They are not hurting, only their unrestricted growth is threatened.

[-] honc@lemmy.ca 12 points 3 weeks ago

Universities are non-profit organizations in Canada. I agree that they don’t need unlimited growth, but the consequence of not funding them is a decrease in the quality of education and the country’s ability to be at the forefront of research.

They are absolutely hurting right now, btw. One consequence of this is some (small) amount of improved efficiency, but the reality if this continues is a degradation of post-secondary education.

For example, more and more high school students will struggle to get into good programs, and then eventually, we just won’t have good programs.

[-] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

They’re hurting because they got addicted to international student funding and grew to ridiculous size, then that funding dried up and they don’t want to shrink back down to normal size.

It’s like a person being fed all-you-can-eat fried chicken and milkshakes, gaining 300 lbs, then being put on a healthy diet and complaining they’re hungry all the time.

[-] howrar@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 weeks ago

Isn't growing universities a good thing? It seems to me that giving everyone access to a university education would be highly beneficial to the people.

[-] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

Universities have grown way beyond what they need to for the domestic student population. This is growth squarely aimed at international students who pay 5-10x what domestic students pay in tuition. Cut off the tap of international students and you end up with huge unused capacity and budget shortfalls.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

You don't even know the difference between universities and colleges.

[-] Zamboni_Driver@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

Perhaps if you had of attended either institution, you wouldn't make comments like that one.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

As clearly this thread has no clue what goes on at universities, or even knows the difference between universities and colleges, I'll explain the OPs point.

$1.7B for 1000 scientist is $1.7M each, for 5 years in total. For senior scientists, this covers salary. But now we have 1000 extra grant applications in a system that is funded at 20% the level of the US per capita. This means we will try and recruit Americans, but tell them they will have an under 10% chance of getting any grant money, and that grant size is half a typical NIH or NSF grant. Large projects? Zero. This research has to be done somewhere, which costs universities money. The same universities getting squeezed by frozen tuitions the last 6 years.

So it is a designed bullshit line item. No one will access this because by the time it rolls out to real funds, the US will have reverted funding and going back to trouncing this banana republic. Excellence, why would an established scientists move to a poorly funded system? They will get more done of they just ride the storm in US.

This money goes to cancer and disease research, like lipid nanoparticles that saved millions of lives with COVID vaccines (yes, that came from Canada), or neural network algorithms driving trillions in investment, also from Canada, but we just pissed away that IP to the US for a handful of shiny rocks.

If Carney is serious about CDN productivity, he needs to fund R&D at per capita levels closer to US or China and make sure the result of this research is developed in Canada, not just sold off cheap to the US as per the last 60 years. A decent economist would realize there is tremendous potential return on investment, far higher than subsidies for pickup truck production to US corporations, and certainly more than the 100-150x more we waste on military spending which does nothing for the CDN economy.

This does not affect colleges. They don't do research and are for vocational training.

[-] sbv@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 weeks ago

Thanks.

[-] Soup@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

Centrists and conservatives don’t have the capacity to understand “return on investment” or “in-direct benefits”. Carney is saving money by not paying the bills, so to speak, and that only works until the first of the month rolls around.

I’m so sick of seeing the research and case studies pile up which show all the easy, low-risk solutions to most of our problems just for those morons to bust in and keep doing the same worthless bullshit.

[-] krooklochurm@lemmy.ca 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Most collegiate institutions in Canada have been going gangbusters for 20 years building new facilities and just generally being stupid with money, cutting down on tenured professors, loading up on administrators.

Like. Maybe some very poor decisions have been made for which there are consequences.

If they were underfunded and hurting for money then why would we do this? If they're underfunded and hurting for money now then why would we provide it when they were so irresponsible with it?

There could be nuance to this situation i don't understand but from my POV our higher educational institutions need to get their fucking shit together.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 weeks ago

The ignorance here is incredible, and reeks of failed students, or people who drank through a 3 year BA in art history. The Canadian Foundation Institute was established 20 years ago to partner with provinces to build badly needed infrastructure for research.

Those "facilities" you are whining about are for research on disease or new technology that is the driving force of the economy. These insitutions are a great net stimulus of billions for new technology and business. New fried chicken franchises are not the future economy.

[-] olbaidiablo@lemmy.ca 12 points 3 weeks ago

It's a good thing that university funding is provincial. Maybe they should stop cutting the funding and giving it to rich people, I'm looking at you Doug Ford.

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

At the same time, the feds want to

recruit more than 1,000 top international researchers to Canada, with the budget injecting up to $1.7-billion into a suite of recruitment measures.

That'll be tough if universities see their income crater.

What do you think the $1.7B is supposed to cover?

They're trying to end low tier colleges just pumping through international students to inflate their financials, and instead trying to poach all the H1-B researchers in the US that are being scared away.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 weeks ago

The $1.7 B is a temporary measure to fund researcher salaries and research costs. They plan to recruit 1000 into a system that already has dwindling grant support and 12% grant success rates with 30% budget cuts. Even if anyone moved here for this, they will just moved back to the US once funding is restored in 36 months, so all Carney is doing is giving US science $1.7B to generate IP that will be developed in the US eventually, while ignoring scientists and engineers in Canada.

The US spent 4X per capita on science than Canada before Trump, and they have the computing and biotech industries worth trillions to show for it.

You can't just move 1000 into Canada without more infrastructure because research already costs insitutions money.

Not sure where this fantasy of Professors lighting cigars with $100 bills is coming from, other than very few on Lemmy seem to be aware at what goes on in these insitutions.

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

The $1.7 B is a temporary measure to fund researcher salaries and research costs.

It's $134 million over three years to bring doctoral and post doctoral students over from the US, which isn't temporary, and doesn't mean it will end in three years, it just means that's how far out they've budgeted funding for at the moment. They're not going to be doing a detailed budget for these years out from now so it's entirely likely that program will just get extended if it's successful.

Then it's $1B over 13 years in new grants, which may not be as much as the US, but is not nothing and is not temporary.

And lol if you think researchers are going to want to go back to the US or will be welcome back to the US in the short to mid term. They elected Trump on two non-consecutive occassions. If those researchers don't come here they're going to the EU, UK, Korea, Japan, India, etc.

[-] saigot@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 weeks ago

I watched my local college lose all its credibility as a result of running borderline scams for foreign students. My old university otoh has been rather smart about not becoming too dependent on foriegn student tuition. I love immigration, and especially think exporting our education is a good thing, but the way these programs have been run in recent years is a cancer on these institutions and pure short term thinking. I'd rather see reform, but this is almost as good.

[-] sbv@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 weeks ago

I'd rather see reform, but this is almost as good.

Actual reform would be the way to go.

UofT appears to have done a good job of keeping their books balanced, despite the glut of foreign students, but many others have not.

[-] CircaV@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 weeks ago

U of T is Toronto’s biggest land owner.

[-] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 7 points 3 weeks ago

It's the perfect crime! The feds create a problem with a solution that's under provincial jurisdiction...

[-] prodigalsorcerer@lemmy.ca 13 points 3 weeks ago

I don't know about other provinces, but here in Ontario, the provincial government created the problem. Tuition has been frozen to 2019 levels and they reduced direct funding to universities and colleges. The "solution" was to massively ramp up international student enrollment, which came with a lot of other issues.

[-] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 3 points 3 weeks ago

I think that's pretty universal, and it's been the case for decades.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

No, it has not been the case for decades.

[-] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 1 points 3 weeks ago

It was certainly the case when I was in school, and that was decades ago.

[-] Jhex@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

The problem was created by Provinces cutting funds to universities and education in general... Universities made up the shortfall by using International Students which was a Federally enabled escape valve.

This has been the game of mostly conservative Provincial Premiers; cut everything and blame it on the Feds.

I do feel for some of the legit universities but from what I see, the vast majority of the money milked from International Students did not go to improve the level of education (barely has moved in the last few years) and mostly went to "Mall universities" which are borderline a scam, all stamped and approved by the Provincial gov.

[-] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 weeks ago

A pleasant reversal from the usual situation. Like, all the regulations that sandbag against housing are municipal, which can only be overridden by the provinces.

[-] Canuck@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 weeks ago

There is too much bloat. I've seen first hand essentially glorified admins being paid $130k + full pension. They need to trim the fat at these places and restructure operations to get rid of all the waste.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 6 points 3 weeks ago

No public institutions in Canada pay the pensions of people employed there. The pension funds are user contributed and the mandatory contributions allow no RESP savings.
Many departments between education and research have budgets exceeding $100M/yr...you want to put that in the hands of anyone making under $250K? Good luck.

Back to the National Post comment section with you.

[-] Canuck@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 weeks ago

I don't want secretaries, alumni officers, event planners, making $130k, and being able to comfortably retire at 55 on a defined benefit plan, no.
Plenty of MBAs in this country that manage budgets larger than that, make less than half that with no pension.

Sounds like you're the only one that reads that paper between the two of us

[-] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 4 points 3 weeks ago

Both for this and for healthcare.

The nurses are struggling to get a fair deal while somehow the billions a year put into healthcare goes where exactly?

Not to the front line staff, I'll tell you that much.

And I get it, materials and equipment isn't cheap but between nurses salaries and material costs, and the occasional multi-million dollar piece of equipment.... I just don't see where it's all being spent. Between the middle and upper management, there needs to be an overhaul.

Education on every level isn't dissimilar.

Hell, most government services need a review, at the very least.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

Okay, right after you explain why Real Estate agents are millionaires.

[-] Canuck@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 weeks ago

I'm with you on that, the job should not exist anymore

[-] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 weeks ago

Is this a whataboutism?

Because this seems like a whataboutism.

[-] LoveCanada@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Got that right. The head of our local college was making $400,000 a year before he retired. This is a small town college not a university, and that kind of income is ridiculously high for a college president in a town of 60,000. Thats double what our premier makes.

On the other hand, I did a little digging and compared to other English speaking nation universities, Canada is actually bottom of the list for paying our university presidents: https://higheredstrategy.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Figure-6.png

[-] Canuck@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 weeks ago

I'm sure private universities in places like the US are included in those figures

[-] CircaV@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah that won’t happen. Senior admin bloat is like crack cocaine for universities and colleges.

[-] snoons@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 weeks ago

Entirely anecdotal, but a University I was attending almost went bankrupt during the pandemic because no one was paying for parking. Like, just losing that income almost destroyed it. I'm not sure Carney, who has never had to worry about rent, can really understand that.

[-] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca 13 points 3 weeks ago

Right. The guy has a PhD in economics, but doesn't understand how things get paid for. smh.

[-] Sunshine@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

Sweet talking conman right there.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

I know people who were qualified for graduate school, but did not get in. Mainly because foreign students pay better. There would actually be a more diverse/enjoyable university experience if more Canadians (say at least half of students) were admitted.

[-] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Most rigorous studies show that immigration is to the net financial benefit of a nation but the increase of foreign students in Canada is really just a story of capitalist greed. The quality of education is far too low for the cost of tuition and I'd argue its an extremist capitalist position to expect infinite growth from a nations productivity and to see decreasing fertility as an existential threat.

Now it's complicated in Canada because social services are funded by the current tax payer base and Boomers are about to decimate the healthcare system as they get older and sicker. But bringing folks over on false pretenses is not the solution to that.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 weeks ago

That's completely false and fabricated. Firstly, foreign students are capped at 8%. Secondly, they pay more tuition, but the institution does not get any government co-funding. Thirdly, in science, students are paid minimum stipends around $30K a year, so space on limited by research funding support, at which Canada is the lowest per capita of the G8. There is a level of demonstrated excellence to get into grad programs, not just a place to spend 5 more years to get a piece of paper.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

Firstly, foreign students are capped at 8%

Is that a new cap? Just for graduate schools? It's been a while since my annecdote or Uni experience.

[-] Devjavu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 3 weeks ago

Once they come for the universities, you know whats up. Happened in nazi germany, where they burned intellectual property including but not limited to the studies of the university of berlin about gender theory.

[-] melsaskca@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

There are lots and lots of Universities all over the world pushing out hard working, intelligent people for which there are not even close to enough jobs. Make it make sense.

[-] Soup@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

Oh, there are enough jobs, it’s just that most companies would rather pay one overworked person to pull 60hr weeks to pump out mediocre work before burning out and being replaced than pay two happy and productive people to work 40hr weeks or, heaven forbid, three people to work 30-32hr weeks with a huge bump in moral and producitivity.

We got the money, we got the people, and we got the evidence that backs it all up.