I really thought about this last year, took the class and everything. In the end I decided not to get one. My reasoning is this: Having a gun and not a lot of experience in what to do with it is like playing a board game for life-and-death stakes that you have never played before.
Maybe I will regret at some point in the future, but I had trouble coming up with scenarios where I wound up thinking "Thank God I pulled my gun out, now all my problems are resolved."
That's because pulling a gun out for most things just escalates the situation.
Which is why if ICE is knocking at the door, the situation is already escalated and it's better to die and try to take a fascist with you than go to a second location.
Rather have ICE kill me in the comfort of my own home instead of going to a death camp I can't find on the map.
Which is why if ICE is knocking at the door, the situation is already escalated and it’s better to die and try to take a fascist with you than go to a second location.
I mean, after a certain point, yes. Solzhenitsyn talked about it, also I think some of the founding fathers had things to say about it. In our current situation, absolutely the fuck not. For one thing, it'll get you killed obviously, for another thing, it'll give them the pretext they're looking for to start with all kinds of shit to all kinds of people that they can't get away with right now. They are praying for something like this to happen. That's why they play up anything which looks vaguely like it into something it isn't.
Every day that goes by where ICE is the illegal mother fuckers and the people of the country are the innocents, is another day they lose a little more backing of the courts, the military, the city police, all kinds of stuff like that which is their pathway to power. I know it sounds like I'm just backing down from fighting back... all I am trying to say is that starting gunfights with the secret police is about like starting a fistfight with your abusive spouse: You're not wrong. But also, you're not going to win through that method.
Here is some extensive information about what does work after quite a lot of research: https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/126900/8008_FDTD.pdf
Every day that goes by where ICE is the illegal mother fuckers and the people of the country are the innocents, is another day they lose a little more backing of the courts, the military, the city police, all kinds of stuff like that which is their pathway to power.
Fascist don't care what is or isn't illegal. You sound just like the average German citizen in the 1930's. Tell more about all the power they are losing while continuing to do the bad things.
Read the book. It's based on a lot of research and it's been actively used in practice in defeating a whole lot of governments a hell of a lot more repressive than Trump's.
Whatever the merits of the violent option, however, one point is clear. By placing confidence in violent means, one has chosen the very type of struggle with which the oppressors nearly always have superiority. The dictators are equipped to apply violence overwhelmingly. However long or briefly these democrats can continue, eventually the harsh military realities usually become inescapable. The dictators almost always have superiority in military hardware, ammunition, transportation, and the size of military forces. Despite bravery, the democrats are (almost always) no match.
The maintenance of nonviolent discipline against violent opponents facilitates the workings of the four mechanisms of change in nonviolent struggle (discussed below). Nonviolent discipline is also extremely important in the process of political jiu-jitsu. In this process the stark brutality of the regime against the clearly nonviolent actionists politically rebounds against the dictators’ position, causing dissention in their own ranks as well as fomenting support for the resisters among the general population, the regime’s usual supporters, and third parties.
Emphasis is mine, that's the answer to your question. He actually says later on that there are circumstances where violence is needed, I couldn't quickly find that quote, but he basically just lays out the history of where and how different types of resistance action have worked.
I realize it's not convincing when I just quote it out like that. Read the book. There are strong reasons and historical examples for everything he's saying in those quick summaries.
Gene Sharp has a lot of great points. I also recommend his book The Politics of Nonviolent Action which has a lot more detail.
However, in the end I asked myself what would Picard (of Star Trek) do and I realized he would be armed and capable and use violent resistance as a last resort.
So I bought a Mossberg 500 and am training with it once a week. I even feild strip it and put it back together. I also started training in Brazilian jiu jitsu which is a pretty fun way to get into shape. I am getting good at grappling and choking big guys out. I'm also learning a bunch about radio.
Another book I recommend is Full Spectrum Resistance which has examples of why it helps to have both nonviolent and violent resistance.
So if you don't feel right with a gun, I think that's ok. As long as we are doing something productive while we can. And it doesn't hurt to level up some skills that you can use to help your community if the unthinkable does happen.
if ice is raiding my house, I am already dead. the only thing I get to decide in that scenario is how long it takes and who I take with me.
as for giving them the pretext, they will create whatever pretext they feel they need. they are already trying. remember the loser who shot migrants at the (Dallas?) ice office a few back? the only thing the government (and most media) would say about it was that he was shooting at ice officers when it was clear he was targeting immigrants.
fascism does not care about legality, and it doesn't care about pretext. if they do not fit the pretext they want in the timeline they want, they will do it themselves.
I mean, after a certain point, yes.
Two frogs sit in a pot of water, one turns to the other and says "were on a fire, we should leave before the water boils"
The second frog turns to the first and says "you're being alarmist, things aren't that bad."
This sounds like the second frog.^‡^
It might be the more practical choice to keep backing away and keeping yourself and the people you care about out of the spotlight as long as possible, it's certainly the safer choice and one that probably leads to a longer life...
You are certainly more optimistic about the future of the country than I am. I train because honestly I find it a little fun, competing with my own best times on various drills and courses. I also in recent years have come to train even harder and begun introducing LGBT friends to firearms, because I believe the country is headed toward civil war.
I'm not inviting my LGBT work friends to my range because I want them to attack ICE. I invite them and encourage them to buy their own firearm and train for self defense because I have literally heard other coworkers say, out loud to be met with nods and agreements, "any day now they'll let us loose and I can go killin all them fs and tr***s (slurs for LGBT people)" and no end of bullshit about how "mentally ill" and "unstable" they supposedly are.
Besides, if my choices are "concentration camp v0.95" and "best case scenario being on the run after a shootout with the gestappo" then I know which choice I'm making.
You definitely have way more faith in our (metaphorical) neighbors and the system than I do. That probably a good thing, I'm a depressed pessimist with tons of anxiety about the state of the world. If more people were like me we would be like 10 years into a Civil War already or worse.
^‡^(frogs don't actually sit in blowly heating water as certain movies like to say, they still will leave at some point when it gets uncomfortable)
For almost my entire life, I never thought I'd own a gun. Now I do. You definitely need to practice with it at a range of your choosing, and keep practicing. I didn't start carrying until after I'd been to the range a dozen times. I still don't carry every time I go out. I don't pretend to be any kind of expert, but I'm happy to talk about what I do know if ever you're interested.
Something I've noticed: carrying makes me extremely polite. Because if I have to draw, I need to already have been doing everything right, or I'm going to prison. Even if I'm totally in the right, don't even get charged with anything, the aftermath of such a situation would be life-changing, in a very bad way. There is no good outcome to an imminent threat to life or limb; being armed gives me the chance of choosing the least bad one.
carrying makes me extremely polite
I saved this comment from u/jlbraun about 13 years ago (would link to the source comment but fuck that site):
As a gun owner, you have to be cool-headed, moreso than the police ever have to be.
You do not start shit, act aggressively, flip the bird, roll your eyes, talk shit, or even raise your voice. To anyone. Ever.
A combat instructor (who happened to be Buddhist and a Marine) once said to me: "From now on, if no one's life is on the line, you will lose every argument. You are always wrong. You are sorry for impinging on their day. You will apologize and apologize again. You will back the fuck down. You will put your tail between your legs. You will let them talk shit about your ladyfriend. You will let them call your mother a bitch and a whore and your dad a bastard. You have no ego. "
"You do all this because if you are the one to start a fight, by default that fight now has a gun in it, and if you start losing, you're going to pull it and kill him. And even if you don't go to jail because you could convince the jury that it was self-defense, you're going to have to live with the fact that you could have saved someone's life and yet you let your ego kill someone."
"You are not the police, so don't act like them. Though all of you [civilians] are better shots than the police, you do not have the training, the continuum of force policy, or a union plus free lawyers protecting you if you screw up."
ed: He also said: "but after backing down and trying to apologize, if at any time you then feel your life or that of a loved one is in danger, put three rounds into his [cardiothoracic] vault, call the police, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby. You did all you could for your attacker, and he was the one that made the final decision to kill himself."
call the police, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby
This is the only part I strongly disagree with
I actually have seen someone ask a lawyer about this. The answer the lawyer gave was:
I modified step 2 slightly, this was from back before there were cameras everywhere so you probably need to be more mindful of that. Don't do anything that makes you look guilty, definitely nothing that makes you look dishonest. But for fuck's sake don't just "give a statement" if you just killed somebody.
Unless you plan to carry concealed or get a concealed carry license skip the pistol for your first gun.
If you want something for home defense that sits by the bed get a 20-gauge pump shotgun. I've never met anyone man woman or child that couldn't shoot one and #3 or #4 buckshot is hard to miss with within 20 or 30 yards. You can go to almost any sporting goods store and pick one up for about $250. I like the Maverick 88.
If you want something to hunt with or just have in case of "troubles" get yourself a decent bolt-action rifle with a 3x9 scope in a popular caliber such as 308 or 270. Rifles are easier to shoot and you can use them for hunting. Once you shoot the rifle a few times and are comfortable with it you can put it away for those "troubles."
If the US gets ripe enough you need to stack bodies you are going to want a rifle more than a pistol and if you have a shotgun or a rifle you can pick up a pistol, there will be plenty on those bodies you are stacking.
That's my extremely qualified opinion, but with that said opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
Good luck out there, be safe.
When I thought about buying a shotgun I looked into rock salt and other non lethal ammo, it turns out it's illegal to load shells with rock salt. Hard to believe
As someone with many years experience, I second this and highly recommend shotguns for home defense.
If you're ready to move up to mobile defense for whatever reasons, and you're not someone who dedicates time and money to shooting regularly, I recommend a revolver like a .38, they are simple to operate, accurate, reliable in almost any conditions, almost impossible to jam, easy to see if it's loaded and ready to fire, and generally much easier to manage and maintain than an automatic.
Very few times in all recorded personal defense situations has anyone ever had to reload, and most of these incidents are over after just a couple rounds are fired. (It's amazing how people with bad intentions tend to forget about their grievances after just one hole, two will usually do the trick no matter where said holes are.)
I also highly recommend anyone who takes any of this remotely seriously to take some self-defense classes, any kind of martial art, don't get sucked down any kind of pipeline of people screaming about what style is best for what, literally anything that gets you able to use your arms and legs as defense tools. You desperately need that muscle memory so your first line of defense isn't the deadly weapon, and so you can survive if you lose your weapon for whatever reason, and not get mentally hung up on having a gun always.
Every american should be familiar with how guns work because we have to live in a country with more guns than people. Imagine if you've never drove, been inside, or even seen a real car your entire life then one day you have to cross a NYC street. Its hard to be safe without the right knowledge.
Every american should be familiar with how guns work
anddd that's why i don't goto the USA
You can be performatively afraid of something you will likely never have an issue with for no other reason than a thing existing, that's fine and your prerogative.
But most people here already know you are far less likely to even have issues with entry into the US or with the people who live here than even media is making it out. Millions of people from all continents pass in and out of the US daily. You're in far more danger being a grade-school or high-school student in the US than a foreign traveler or visitor.
To the kiddoes who get down this far, there are 500 million citizens in the US and murder is still rare enough that it makes the news. Not always, but often. While other countries have less violent crime, broadly our whole world is at an all-time low in violence despite what your local for-profit media company wants you to think. Yes, the US has woefully outdated gun laws, but our primary problem here is fear. The same fear that makes you think the US is a violent wasteland of shootouts on every corner, that's the same fear that makes people here cling to guns. You're not hurting me by whinging that you will "never set foot in the US" I literally do not care, so ask yourself who you're performing for, and if you're just needlessly adding to the narratives of fear, and why it makes you feel good to do so. Who do you want to feel bad and why?
Liberals, LGBTQ, whoever else was mentioned in this headline should have been training with guns for years at this point. The writing has been on the wall for a while.
I was anti-gun until I was 37. That’s when I realized it doesn’t matter about my political viewpoint regarding guns, the right has been using it as leverage for my entire life.
I’m 42 now. I got my first rifle when I was 38. I got my first shotgun when I was 39. I got my first pistol when I was 40. I go bi-weekly to the range.
The writer of the article should try harder to not confuse “interest” with preparation. This shit is an unwelcome use of my free time, but I’m probably a better shot than 90% of MAGA at this point.
As someone who used to create judgemental use of force firearm training simulators for law enforcement, I can tell you right now you're likely a better shot than 90% of our police force too.
The writing has been on the wall for a while
I saw this coming when the tea party appeared. Moved my wife and daughters out of the US in 2015 for precisely this reason. When I lived there I owned a rifle and a shotgun, not because I thought I'd need to defend myself against criminals or immigrants, but because I thought there was a pretty good chance I'd have to defend myself against right wingers.
I support this
Also leftists. Also rightists.
So, basically, people from every political background are buying guns.
The warmongers win again.
Do stand your ground laws apply when a warrantless unidentified “federal agent” comes to your door because anyone with sense would fear for their lives?
People have legally defended themselves in that situation, yes- but first you have to survive until your court date.
Short answer is “It depends.”
If a masked, unidentified individual with a weapon is in your home, it will very likely apply.
Interestingly enough; this hasn’t happened yet. It’s almost like they know which places not to fuck with, even though there isn’t an official national gun registry or anything.
I mean… Amazon purchases can be tracked. I wonder if buying CLP or a boresnake gets someone put on a “do not try” list.
I'm surprised something like that hasn't already happened.
One of the more telling aspects of who ICE is targeting.
America's relationship with guns is darkly fascinating for those of us in other 'western' countries. The cliche of the right-wing gun-nut is seemingly way off the mark. You guys have absolutely normalised gun ownership. It's deeply entrenched in your culture and is married to civil liberty in a way that is alien to most other developed nations.
It seems that the state tempering gun ownership is widely viewed as an intrusive and sinister overreach, whereas for us allowing everyday people to own assault rifles etc would be viewed as a dangerous dereliction of duty by the government.
I totally get the appeal of firearms. We go "clay pigeon shooting" where I lived in the UK. It's fun. But the idea that the average citizen could legally own a gun is wild to us.
wing everyday people to own assault rifles etc would be viewed as a dangerous dereliction of duty by the government.
The US doesn't do that either. Very few people own assault rifles, you need a very expensive and difficult to obtain license and have since 1986. You're falling for gun grabber propaganda.
Lifelong anti-gun libtard here.
I've been doing my research and talking to friends with guns so I can begin the process of arming myself.
Fascism is here and I passed my history classes. I know where this is going. It's time to make sure you, and everyone you know, is armed to the teeth.
If things keep escalating, which they will, because that's what fascists do, then there will come a day when they attempt to prevent anyone who registered/voted Democrat from purchasing firearms.
Buy them. Now.
“To defend themselves.”
Fuckin’ hell.
Try again.
To defend themselves and the people they care about? What are you on about son.
Too few, too little, too late.
I hope not, but I think a lot of them are still living with the fear of yesteryear that has not updated with the times and the threat of their neighbors having it in for them, and not being as worried about the legal repercussions.
Welcome to America the only country where you have to worry about your toddler shooting you.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fresno-unintentional-shooting-toddler-mother/
https://abc7.com/post/gun-safety-pregnant-woman-shot-norwalk-ohio-norkwalk-news/13410862/
For added bonus soo many guns even your dog will shoot you.
The gun lobby must be excited about this headline, we just need a few more gun sales to make us safe!
I've decided on a shotgun. With buckshot you don't have to aim, you get multiple shots, it's inexpensive and you can hit multiple targets in unarmored areas. It's just for home defense, I'm not sure if we should be carrying outside. We have to be careful though, life is worth saving not shooting.
Just a heads up, the whole "you don't have to aim" is a complete myth. Shotgun spread is completely blown out of proportion. It's somewhere around 0.5" to 1" per yard with barrel length, choke, and shot type affecting spread. Unless you're insanely rich and live in a mansion, you'd be within 10 yards so you'd only get 5" to 10" of spread which really isn't much especially since the pellets may not be evenly distributed within that diameter.
For anyone looking to buy a gun, educate yourself first to know what you're getting into and go to the range consistently so you know how to use it. If you don't do both of those, you'd be at risk of hurting yourself or someone else if ever you have to use it in a life or death situation.
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News