I mean, it's really both. Hamas is batshit crazy, they're just far less militarily powerful.
There are no good guys in the Israel Palestine fight.
If one stops trying to subjugate the other, the other should hopefully slowly start to be calm down about the subjugation.
Years and years of people stealing land, burning houses, shooting unarmed protesters and prosecuting people unfairly only leads to more hatred, more conflict, and more war.
If there was any chance of a free and fair election in Palestine that could elect something else it would be good, but only would end up different if it came without Israel's interference and them actually staying out of Palestine. Governments like Israel and the U.S. or U.K. trying to put anyone on the ground there is more likely to cause conflicts. Where as if the UN countries all agreed to cut all trade with Israel if they didn't stop trying to instigate shit.. Israel would likely listen, or dissolve over time if they didn't. The only people who should be on the ground there is investigate journalists and AID from around the world to help those people rebuild and leave whatever can be left behind them behind them
Honest question:
Why are the US and other countries, backing Israel so hard? I've heard they have an amazing spy system, and it seems to be only politicians that back Israel unconditionally. Is it blackmail, keeping our fuck ups as status quo, or maybe "Hamas is evil no matter what?"
No, it's cultural affinity (polite way of saying racism) and economic interests (polite way of saying colonialism).
Same reason why the entire western world was fully supportive of South Africa during Apartheid
It's also propaganda, AIPAC has been pushing the idea of Israel devotion for decades in the US. I'd imagine there's similar lobbying groups (in less obvious forms) in other countries as well.
Falls under cultural affinity.
It also takes other forms, that are not always very explicitly racist. In Greece for example, a country with a traditionally anti-imperialist people (Papandreou and Arafat were really besties), Israel has become a strategic ally to contain against Turkish aggression. Even Tsipras was cordial with Bibi. Take away Erdogan's sabre rattling and Greece would probably revert back to sanity.
Where i live (argentina), Israel's agenda is pushed in almost every news outlet, especially from the right. Some journalists even wear Israeli pins and have Israeli flags on their desks. And, for real, we couldn't care less about the near east (dont get me wrong, but i think you will agree that we have our own set of domestic problems). For what I see and what I hear that happens in other parts of the west, I feel that "cultural affinity" isn't the only card on their hand.
Honestly don't know for certain, but Israel pays a lot of money into lobbying in the U.S.
On a side note I would say Israel is the U.S. guaranteed entry point to that region of the world, so when it comes to intimidating other countries having a foothold somewhere there is of value to the U.S. (vehicle efficiency has increased, and car ownership dropped from 138 million registered in 2021 to 97 million registered in 2023.). So 30% loss in cars., and population increased from ~285m to ~337m during that time. (Irrelevant, but for scale that's 127% of Canadas population total)
So the U.S. has stockpiled military equipment in Israel for decadees that is well defended do to shared technologies. This allows for unilateral support if say Bush 1 or Bush 2 wants to manipulate the area for something pertaining to oil prices getting to low/high. Contrary to many, I believe the U.S. ensures oil barrels stay higher in price because the lifting cost in the U.S. is higher. A good example is our oil production has increased by more than double from 2001 till today.
If the cost of oil in Iran/Saudia Arabia go lower that profitability drops, and some of the largest contributors to the Republican party (oil companies in the west, would see huge drops in income).
Other countries of interest there. Argentina, Columbia, and Venezuela. Should also mention Brazil, but they have grown closer ties with China who they export most of their excess Oil production too. Harder to impact at the moment, so they likely want to keep them out of direct conflicts.
Remember Trump sat down in May 2024 asking oil executives directly for $1 billion dollars in campaign contributions to help him get elected with the promise to squash any programs he could pertaining to EV growth.
Oil and natural gas. Also using it as a proxy serving imperialism interests against the other side of impwrial countries (China and Russia)
Hamas has power because they are resisting an apartheid state. I'm sorry but I absolutely hate this take. You can criticize a state when it gains sovereignty and is enacting unjust laws against its citizens. But when the only resistance to an apartheid state is a right wing faction that right wing faction is still correct for resistance.
Do you think the solution to the unjust Jim Crow laws of the segregation in the US South would be for Canada to start carpet bombing Atlanta? A people can not make progress within their state structures while under the thumb of oppression and apartheid.
The time to criticize the Palestinian state is after there is a sovereign Palestinian state. Hamas on paper might have right wing ideas. But Hamas as a force fighting an apartheid state against the genocide of its people is absolutely fully justified. And that's who makes up "Hamas".
The Palestinian people don't have the luxury of deciding which ideology is fighting to resist their extermination. And not until they have self determination as a people can they begin to actually progress in their civil rights.
Not to mention that few Palestinians currently alive ever voted for Hamas. The average Palestinian is 20 years old, 63% of their population is under 29. The last election was in 2006, meaning 63% of the current population would be 10 or younger when those elections happened.
Hamas accept the two state solution. Israel doesn't
Hamas doesn't accept the two state solution. They are open to maybe discussing potentially reaching a consensus about the 1967 borders.
If you want to underscore Israeli unreasonableness, you've got to point to the PA/Fatah. The PA/Fatah has accepted the two state solution and has stopped violent resistance against Israel. They are in every way an interlocutor for peace. And in return they are being constantly undermined and ratfucked by Israel. Their territory is being annexed, its authority ridiculed, ita legitimacy destroyed.
So PA has respected the term of the Oslo accords and Israel didn't and start building more settlements, arming and protecting the settlers yet PA still accept to work for Israel security while west banker get terrorized and attacked by them . Thank you for proving my point that PA are collaborators and Israel do not want peace regardless if Hamas is destroyed or not
Hamas sabotaged the Oslo Accords by blowing up civilians exactly because they opposed a two state solution. (Succesfully, because this then helped Netanyahu seize power)
Secular Palestinian Political Organisations existed, Bibi supported Hamas specifically to weaken the secular flanks, because it’s way easier to justify a genocide against Hamas
Hamas is batshit crazy, they're just far less militarily powerful.
What? Hamas's position of "give us a Palestinian state and we'll give them our weapons" is very reasonable. Their lack of respect for civilian lives is one thing, but "batshit crazy" ain't it. Why do you think they're batshit crazy?
"82% of Israelis want to expel Palestinians from Gaza; 47% want to kill every man, woman, child in Gaza"
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-expel-palestinians-gaza-genocide/
I doubt you'd have the same number from Palestinians because they are not indoctrinated from birth to dehumanise, like the Israelis are. There's a reason corporate media in the West never interview "normal" israelis
I think you seriously underestimate the Palestinians and what they think of their neighbours
Okay, I'll bite. Let's say that Palestinians also need to be deradicalized. Surely the first step should be to stop the ongoing genocide and apartheid?
Fatah. Marwan Barghouti. Palestinian civil society calling for BDS.
Just because Israel wants the Hamas scarecrow as its opponent doesn't mean the rest of Palestinian society is irrelevant.
There are no good guys in the Israel Palestine fight.
Of course there aren't. Especially not the (checks notes) starving civilians, children, the elderly, the disabled and the people wanting to live a normal life. They're ceratainly not "in the fight". They're not right beside it, either. They're magical beings made up by Khamas to make the world hate Israel.
Both sides are the same. That's why one should genocide the other. It is the natural order of the world, after all.
Come on, dude/dudette. It's not about sides. It's about people. But there's one thing about sides I do know: there's one side of history you're on. And it's exactly the wrong one.
Hamas is crazy as Crazy Horse was “crazy”. You know what both have/had in common? They are/were fighting displacement of their friends and family due to colonizing powers. The only difference is the latter's people suffered almost complete annihilation while the former is a work on progress. If the British didn't insist on making Palestine their reservation for Jews, then Palestinian freedom fighters wouldn't have had to fight Zionists violently encroaching upon their native land.
"82% of Israelis want to expel Palestinians from Gaza; 47% want to kill every man, woman, child in Gaza"
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-expel-palestinians-gaza-genocide/
It would be very interesting to see how Palestinians would respond to the same questions.
All of the land occupied by Israel is stolen from Palestinians, they would be justified in wanting them out and their homes back. But if you ask them they generally say they don't necessarily want to evict anyone, most of the average people there just want to live and have sovereignty.
Would you say that a jewish Israeli whose ancestors lived there in 1800 had stolen the land from Palestinians? What if they immigrated there in 1880 and built a hut in the desert? Not to make light of the situation but I hope you understand there's more nuance than the trope "jews arrived there on a boat in '46 and claimed the land". The idea that we should merge all the different nations that emerged back into a resurrected Ottoman Empire to make everyone who was wronged whole again is just unworkable.
You can already see the hallmark signs of a state funded media campaign to undermine any and all claims that the ceasefire has been broken and continues to be so.
They’re using the fact that people are tired of seeing and reading about horrible things knowing they have no control over it. As a result, the public are now personally invested (mental wellbeing) into the ceasefire being real. Even if the bombing campaign and conditions are nearly identical to pre-“ceasefire” levels, the general public is exhausted and takes the (still propagandized) media’s coverage as truth.
benjamin needs to be prosecuted like he shouldve been, before he got the PM position again.
Israel? The nation that "secretly" detonated a nuclear bomb without any repercussions after the ban?
Israel? The nation that has a plan to nuke as many people as possible if their "promised land" is threatened?
No, not that Israel. There's no way.
They are not wrong that Israel is radicalised. However, peace is a process, and what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.
If Israel was actually willing to reconcile and treat Palestinians as equals, the South African model of truth & reconciliation (including amnesty for abuses in exchange for full disclosure of what happened), it wouldn't be just for the victims, but it would allow both sides to move on peacefully.
The real problem is that Netanyahu, Smoltrich, Ben Gvir etc... don't actually want peace, so even a neutral truth & reconciliation is currently unlikely to happen without their backers (especially the US) forcing them.
So here's a comment which will probably be downvoted to hell, but I can deal with that.
I'm almost 50 years old. Israel and Palestine (plus other surrounding countries) have never been at peace as long as I can think.
There's always some asshole who thinks fighting a war is the better option. If an Israeli prime minister wants to make peace, they fucking shoot him. If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.
In the meantime, there are at least some people on both sides who wish for nothing more than peace. Yes, we can debate on which side has more of them and it's damn certain there aren't enough of them by far.
But can we maybe just stop taking a side? This conflict is not about Israel or Palestine having to be deradicalized, OP, it's about the all the warmongers and religious fundamentalists and radicals on both sides who need to be deradicalized.
There will never be an end to this as long as I live if we continue to blame either Israel or the Palestinians. Both is wrong, both of them haven't done nearly enough to stop this insanity.
(But yeah, I totally agree, the current right wing Israeli government is a hopeless case if you want peace.)
Hamas is not Palestine and Palestine is not Hamas.
The victims of genocide, apartheid, occupation do not have the same level of culpability as the perpetrators. And it's not the current right wing government that's to blame, sorry. It is the whole edifice that the Israelis have built of occupation, apartheid, and now genocide.
You want a moderate palestinian leader? He exists. His name is Marwan Barghouti. And it's not Hamas that has "done their own thing". He's in an Israeli jail, with that worm Ben Gvir torturing him.
And if 50 years seems like a long time to you, and that they should just grow up and accept the fait accompli of the occupation and the defeat, well sorry but that says more about you. I know nothing about you but I wouldn't be surprised if you come from a cultural background that doesn't have a history of resistance and struggle for freedom. My Greek ancestors were occupied for 400 years. The Irish for 800. Warmongering? Wars for freedom are just wars. Peace is not the absence of war, it is the presence of justice. No justice? No peace. As simple as that.
So yea, I'm going to take a side.
This war is about land and imperialist control over the middle east, not religion.
You spelled dissolved wrong.
A community for discussing events around the World
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed.
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF OCTOBER 19 2025
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Ask Historians !askhistorians@lemmy.world
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
