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submitted 1 month ago by Saleh@feddit.org to c/politics@lemmy.world
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[-] A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 88 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Polls are a great way to get the answers you want. I don't know what the pollsters wanted, but to me the question in question is skewed, because one is a state while the other is an organisation.

“In the Israel-Hamas conflict, do you support more Israel or more Hamas?”

So my answer would've been "I support Palestinians in their struggle to have their own country again over Israel which is clearly on an aggressively expansionist rampage."

Since that isn't an option I can refuse to answer the stupid poll, or say I support Hamas.

Shouldn't we explain the nature & history of the struggle instead?


edit: obvious pro/contra Hamas discussion ensues. But IMO it's moot - at least for the foreseeable future - because Israel is so obviously the much bigger monster here, and has been for a long while, and because denying a nation the right to exist simply is not acceptable.

[-] MartianSands@sh.itjust.works 39 points 1 month ago

While you're not wrong, I think framing it as "israel-hamas" rather than "israel-palestine" is the least favourable framing available (for a supporter of Palestine) without resorting to really obvious leading questions.

As such, seeing a majority opinion against Israel is encouraging. I'd expect a more nuanced survey to swing more heavily against Israel

[-] A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 15 points 1 month ago

framing it as “israel-hamas” rather than “israel-palestine” is the least favourable framing available

Isn't that exactly what I said? Maybe my phrasing is off.

[-] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

MartinSands point is that even though GenZ probably don't support Hamas murdering civilians, they still consider their struggle as more virtuous than Israel when given no other option; meaning support for Palestine is likely much higher than the poll suggests.

[-] MartianSands@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 month ago

I thought you were implying that the survey was so unreliable that we couldn't reach any conclusions about support for Israel, or the lack thereof. I was trying to point out that we could (tenuously) reach at least one conclusion.

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[-] BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 5 points 1 month ago

It's not that 60% support Hamas, it's that 60% oppose Israel

[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Hamas are just a group of men whos families were blown up by the IDF. not saying their actions after are not evil but I understand their mindset. If the world has condemned you and your people to death simply for existing, what other options do they have?

[-] BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 5 points 1 month ago

I get that 100%. I have said it about MAGAs in America. I have people very close to me who are members of vulnerable groups that MAGA is targeting. If ANYTHING was to happen to them, I would become very dangerous indeed. That's a bright red line for me.

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[-] BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 7 points 1 month ago

Exactly. I don't care if Hamas is wiped out, they're objectively awful, it's the Palestinians getting killed in the crossfire that's the issue.

Of course, they aren't really getting caught in the crossfire, they are the targets. Israel is just using Hamas as an excuse to throw bombs around residential areas, hospitals, and schools.

[-] dirthawker0@lemmy.world 65 points 1 month ago

What the hell kind of apples and oranges headline is that. Israel is a country. Hamas is a political party, not the same as Palestine or Palestinians.

[-] SereneSadie@lemmy.myserv.one 9 points 1 month ago

I'd go with terrorist state personally.

[-] TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It is sad that nuance is lost in this conflict. If you condemn Israeli action on Palestinians, you are accused as anti-Semite. If you condemn the October 7 attack, you are accused of being Zionist and supporting the genocide on Palestinians.

There isn't ironic bothside-ism on this. Literally both sides are actually at fault. Majority of Israelis back driving the Palestinians out of West Bank and Gaza, and majority of Palestinians want Israel as a country to be destroyed. If anyone have watched or read Attack on Titan TV series or manga, this is a major theme in the story of intergenerational conflict. Two state solution is the only way for the conflict to end, and it isn't like there was no precedence to lay down arms and live in coexistence (see how the conflict in Northern Ireland ended when both opposing sides agreed that enough is enough). But there is too much bad blood between Israelis and Palestinians to call quits any time soon.

[-] prole 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

If you condemn the October 7 attack, you are accused of being Zionist and supporting the genocide on Palestinians.

I haven't seen this. Most honest anti-Zionists I've seen online have been very clear in their denunciation of Oct 7.

It's more like, "if you don't constantly bring up the horrible attack from several years ago and make sure everyone knows you condemn it, then that means you're anti-Semitic."

[-] TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

I've seen online have been very clear in their denunciation of Oct 7.

It maybe depends on which social media you are in. I do see tankies in Lemmy shy away from condemning October 7 attack.

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[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Palestine just want to end occupation. Stop with equating the oppressed with the oppressor

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[-] RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I look forward to being called an Anti Semite, being a Jew who's been to Israel twice, and watched my sister get Bat Mitzvah'd on a synagogue roof near the Wailing Wall, and was active in my temple youth group until I graduated High School.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 58 points 1 month ago

back Hamas over Israel

Even here, the setup is false. Anyone remotely affiliated with Hamas is little more than a blood smear on the pavement in Gaza at this point. Israelis are torturing general surgeons to death and calling them Hamas. They're butchering babies and calling them Hamas. They're gunning down European photojournalists and calling them Hamas.

There is no "Hamas" left to support. It's just the stamp Israel puts on the body bag.

[-] ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online 19 points 1 month ago

The sheer barbarity of Israel is incredible. What is even more incredible is how this is actively fucking over western democracy. Israel is willing to throw down every single freedom in the West (from electoral freedom, to freedom speech, to privacy rights... everything) just so they have a few more settlements built on the graves of people they want dead.

The entire war on terror is Israel's fault. I am going to say it. Modern Islamic fundamentalism is a product of the Cold War, but almost every form of modern international terrorism has its roots in Israeli action and the blowback to that.

[-] monogram@feddit.nl 7 points 1 month ago

BS, ~~Islamic~~ Religious fundamentalism is not the fault of Jewish Zionism, it is the means for bolstering Authoritarianism over Democracy, Dogma over Human Rights, Corruption over Workers Rights.

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[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Israel is willing to throw down every single freedom in the West (from electoral freedom, to freedom speech, to privacy rights… everything) just so they have a few more settlements

It's much more than settlements. It's a Holy War in the very medieval sense. Israelis genuinely really desperately want to rebuild the Third Temple. So much of this Holocaust is rooted in a primevil desire to complete a ritual slaughter of a bull in a magic building that was destroyed thousands of years ago.

[-] ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online 6 points 1 month ago

That is also what is freaky.

I remember the halcyon days of 2001 and early 2002 right at the time 9/11 happened. The internet was aflame with all manner of anti-muslim stuff (with many sites and earliest citations of personalities going back to March 2001 for some reason) that labeled the entirety of the Muslim world as so irredeemably ignorant and stuck back in the Middle Ages and trying to bring about an apocalypse or simply acting out of centuries or millennia old hatred and prophecy...

All the while every fucking they were saying was a goddamn projection of their own shit. Zionists at the time claimed they were secular and rooted in the modern world of liberalism and computers while in reality they were far more fundamentalist into their own religion and religious prophecies than any Muslim group.

Also they loved to claim that the entirety of the Muslim world was a carbon copy of rural Taliban controlled Afghanistan when nothing could have been farther than the truth.

Muslim fundamentalism (however you define it) is a major problem. But if I had to put the order of danger that religious fundamentalism faces to the world, it would be on lower orders, compared to American Evangelicalism and Zionist Judaism. As a general rule, the fairly harsh religious views of Saudi Arabia, the gulf states, and Iran are mostly contained there with their governments not really interested in propagating it elsewhere.

Meanwhile you have Americans who literally think they are going to bring out the apocalypse, and people like Eric Prince who want to make an old school style 'free army' like in Medieval Italy and France (that resulted in untold death and misery) and to have modern crusader states where Muslims convert or die.

Fuck them hard.

[-] Barberserk@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Just ask yourself, which religious nutjobs have nukes? And you have your answer. And no it is not Iran.

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[-] ammonium@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

I think Hamas is bigger than ever, Israel has given the doubters 18,000 reasons to join Hamas

[-] frezik 6 points 1 month ago

Anyone remotely affiliated with Hamas is little more than a blood smear on the pavement in Gaza at this point

Imagine if this isn't true. It'd mean Israel managed to bomb literally everything except Hamas.

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[-] Whostosay@sh.itjust.works 44 points 1 month ago

Although this question is framed in the shittiest way possible, I would still support Hamas over the IDF because only one of these organizations are guilty of genocide.

Easiest call I've ever made.

[-] BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 26 points 1 month ago

Israel managed to figure out to turn a vicious terrorist group into the good guys.

[-] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 month ago

Turns out when people break out of a literal concentration camp to fight back against their oppressor they're ~~freedom fighters~~ terrorists

[-] BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

That's the main pitfall of this topic. There doesn't have to be a "good guy" in every conflict. Killing over 1000 Israelis on October 7th, mostly civilians, was unjustified as is keeping the remaining hostages (it's clearly not restraining the IDF). Likewise blocking aid, destroying hospitals, and targeting journalists is completely unjustified. If you ask me who's trying their best to do what's right for their people I would say Hamas.

[-] prole 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yeah but it's not "likewise," is it?

It's 1000 civilian deaths (many shot dead by the IDF due to the Hannibal Detective) vs. a literal genocide and complete destruction of Gaza.

The problem is that people like yourself equate these two things. What Israel has done since Oct 7 (which was not unprovoked, by the way) has been worse by several orders of magnitude.

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[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Hamas terrorism is a direct consequence of 77 years of oppression

[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 32 points 1 month ago

They spent so long equating criticism of Israel with being pro-Hamas that they accidentally made the kids pro-Hamas.

[-] drspawndisaster@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 month ago

Or pro-hamas was the only other option in the survey.

[-] RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world 28 points 1 month ago

I am American jew. I recently replied to an email from my old synagogue about volunteering in Israel, explaining I have no desire to aid Israel with their Nazi Stockholm manic episode, but to have fun working on the new Holocaust.

[-] pyre@lemmy.world 20 points 1 month ago
[-] electric_nan@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 month ago

Wtf is wrong with the other 40%?

[-] absentbird@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

I think there's a lot of people who don't like Israel or Hamas. It's complicated by the fact Hamas is more like a political party than a nation. If it was Israel vs Palestine I think more people would support Palestine.

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[-] 0x0@lemmy.zip 12 points 1 month ago

TL;DR the question they asked 2000 kids was “In the Israel-Hamas conflict, do you support more Israel or more Hamas?”

Its not just gen z.

[-] silver_wings_of_morning@feddit.dk 10 points 1 month ago

In the lesser of two evils they choose Hamas, which I find insane. I can certainly understand being very against and hating Isreal, but to me Hamas are literal demon scum cockroaches. I have a higher opinion of the Russian military than I do Hamas. And support of Ukraine is something I feel incredibly strongly about.

I think this is a minority opinion here though.

[-] Saleh@feddit.org 25 points 1 month ago

Hamas is a product of Israeli occupation. The IDF is a product of Israeli national identity.

If it wouldn't be Hamas, it would be a different violent organization, like before PFLP, PLO, etc. When people are brutally oppressed, it leads to violent resistance, that often will not limit itself to military targets.

[-] 3abas@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

The baby killers who brag about it are not literal demon scum cockroaches, the resistance group is?

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[-] Randomgal@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 month ago

Top bad they don't live in a democracy lmao

[-] iAvicenna@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Not that I trust polls and people's intentions when they do polls but the comparison does actually make sense since Israeli state is by far the greatest terrorist organization of the last couple decades.

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this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2025
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