I'm with you on words just being words. But there is one factor, especially in ongoing relationships (romantic, platonic, familial, whatever), that makes apologies important.

I don't care about the feeling bad or the words or whatever, but I do care about acknowledging wrong-doing. Because if they haven't apologized, they might not think what they did was wrong, and there is absolutely no reason to believe if the situation came up that they wouldn't do it again.

Now, don't get me wrong, plenty of people apologize and then do the thing again. But if they don't even apologize, it's practically guaranteed. The apology just sends the message that you and they are on the same page about whatever it is.

I disagree that expecting an apology is narcissistic. If I were being a devil's advocate, I would ask you how expecting "actionable, notable change" is any less narcissistic than expecting an apology? I pose this question because I'm not sure I understand why you feel that expecting an apology is narcissistic (perhaps the confusion is arising from differing understandings of the word "narcissistic" — a complex word that is used in quite diverse ways)

I agree with you that apologies are, at best, insufficient — at least on their own — because even the best apologies can be invalidated by someone continuing to cause the same kind of harm they apologised for. However, when a good apology is accompanied by meaningful change, then it can really help with closure.

I have some trauma due to the stress of an extended period of disability discrimination, and sometimes I think about how I wish they would apologise. There was legal action taken, and compensation, but no apology. I can imagine a hypothetical alternate world where part of the settlement involved an apology, but that is not the outcome I crave, because that apology would inevitably just be hollow and only intended to placate me. This feels analogous to how you describe that you wouldn't want an apology, except in my case, the apology would be coming from an organisation, rather than an individual, which would make the flavour of hollowness somewhat different.

The apology I crave is the one I know I will never get, but I would trade away most of the compensation for. It's a silly thought to entertain, because if they had been willing to recognise the harm that they had caused me and committed to change, then it probably wouldn't have escalated to legal action. And even if they had apologised in a way that felt genuine, I would have no way of holding them accountable to it, because I wasn't involved with that organisation anymore. For me, an apology is about being seen. The harm that was done to me can never be undone, but recognising that harm is a necessary first step towards preventing it from being done unto others.

I think that expecting an apology isn't a great thing necessarily. It certainly can be reasonable to expect it as a requirement to continue engaging with a person as part of an ongoing relationship of some sort, as a first step towards meaningful change. Expecting an apology is useful in these scenarios because if someone refuses to, then it lets me know early that I should not expect them to be better in future, and I can do with that information what I will. If they do apologise, then their apology exists for a while in an odd "superposition" where I'm not sure whether to regard it as a genuine apology or a bullshit one — that will depend on their future actions.

A distinct but relevant question is that of forgiveness. I've found that whether I forgive a person is decoupled from whether they apologise and/or improve, and I'm much healthier for it. I think of forgiveness as something that I do for myself; there's a Buddhist line I like that says "holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die". I don't like forgiveness being treated as if it is given in exchange for an apology and/or meaningful improvement, because even when that growth does happen, it feels like it devalues both the growth and the forgiveness to treat it as transactional. Based on your post, I suspect you would have interesting perspectives on how forgiveness interacts with apologies and/or actual change.

I am trying to reflect on whether there is anyone who has meaningfully grown or repaired their original wrong who I haven't forgiven. I don't think so. However, there are people who haven't apologised (or did so insincerely, out of selfishness) who I have forgiven. I

Apologies are largely for the person delivering them, but I will say, they're important in a healthy relationship. An honest apology shows the other person that their feelings are understood and validated while also recognizing the harm done by the person apologizing. If you are no longer in a relationship of some sort with that person, the apology is solely for them.

I expect an apology from my spouse only when I want them to recognize that I was hurt by what they did/said. If that isn't met, it's important for me to, respectfully, tell them the way that I'm feeling about their actions or words. Again, in a healthy relationship like I have with my spouse, they will empathize with my perspective and offer apology. This is in no way narcissistic for them to do, but if I feel it's facetious, I sternly say thank you in a tone that says I see that you think you should apologize, but this is not a true apology.

What you're describing is something where no apology could make up for the hurt that was caused. Narcissistic? I think that's a deeply psychological thing, but you are in no way required to accept an apology. Again, it would be for the other person and in this case it might be best for you to let them know that you can't accept an apology. There's no making up for what they did, no gesture or otherwise will make it better. They have to live with that guilt because some consequences last a lifetime. Frankly, fuck their apology. Fuck them. You have to live your life and they have to find a way to live with what they've done. You don't have to accept an apology.

I think it depends on what you mean by "expect". Do you mean you think they have a moral obligation to apologize because of their actions? That's not narcissistic. That's a value judgment. Others may disagree with you, if they hold different values or disagree about the facts involved.

But maybe by "expect" you think they owe it to you, or something like that? Then there is some potential for narcissism.

Then as you noted, what is the apology for? Forgiveness? To undo the damage? To show awareness of the badness? To express a goal to not do that shitty thing in the future? People giving and receiving apologies can easily disagree about what the apology is supposed to accomplish.

I never expect an apology when I've been wronged

However, an apology is a necessary step towards rebuilding whatever trust/respect/relationship we had prior to that wrongdoing.

And it is just a step, on its own an apology is just meaningless words unless it is backed up by concrete actions to show that you do intend to do better and try to set things right.

The point of an apology, as far as I'm concerned, isn't just what it says on the surface, a statement that you're "sorry" or that you "feel bad," or however you choose to phrase it.

It's not about you and how you feel, you're not the one who's been wronged.

But the deeper meaning, in a sincere apology, is that you're acknowledging that you fucked up, and that it was wrong, and that you will try to do better going forward.

We can continue without an apology, but things will not be as they were. I will not be able to trust you as I have before. Even if you seem to have improved, I may still find myself suspicious of your motives.

The form that the apology takes can vary, it doesn't need necessary to be an explicit written or verbal apology in all cases, actions, as they say, speak louder than words, but in some way it needs to be made clear that you have acknowledged what you have done, understand that it was wrong and why, and intend to do improve.

I hear you saying that words are meaningless to you, but surely you recognize that that's not the case for everybody. Words are actions, and as someone who doesn't use them lightly I find that the only people who refuse to apologize when asked are other people who don't treat words lightly. I don't apologize for anything I'm not actually sorry for, and if someone won't apologize to me it shows they don't think my feelings are equal to theirs.

A good apology has three parts: Recognition of what one did wrong, a sincere effort not to repeat the behavior, and an attempt at restitution for past behavior. I don't think it's narcissistic to expect that of people if they want to continue the relationship as equals, since I would do the same if I wronged them.

Do I expect an apology if the person leaves me alone and never talks to me again? No. Go live your best life, far away from me.

Do I expect an apology if the person keeps wanting something from me, like time, energy, or attention in any form whatsoever? Fuck yes. Apologize authentically or pound sand.

Demanding or needing one is certainly childish. Constantly reminding someone to apologise is just plain parenting though. Forgiveness is nontrivial.

To expect an apology is certainly some strange behavior, and probably wrong most times.

But "narcissistic" is not a good description. That is something very different. Maybe I'd rather go with "egoistic".

No

I'm specifically asking if the person that expects someone else to apologize is driven by their own narcissism.

Two things come to my mind:

• It all depends the context.
  Context will tell if there is or there isn't narcissism involved, which is more frequent than one would like to think imho. I would say it's narcissistic when it's used against someone else, to give oneself an edge against that person, to make them feel bad, or when it's expected because one thinks they deserve apologies, something like that (it's just raw thoughts). It's not when apologies are expected not because one deserves them but because, the roles were switched, apologizing is what one would do if they had done something similar to someone else .
• Apologies are never a single person action, a single direction act.
  I mean, apologies are always at the same time received and given, given and received. It's an interaction between at least two persons (or one person and the entire civil society, in the case of most criminal affairs: they're public for a reason). It's never a monologue... or it should not be, if it is to mean something. Whereas narcissism is all about the self: it's Narcissus admiring its own image in the water, considering nothing but himself.

So, a sincere apology is always something bidirectional, and not about oneself. It's a tool used to create/reinforce/fix a weakened or a broken bound between two or more people.