Ofcourse you can breed aggression, its so absurd to claim that you cant.
We have bite statistics. Every year, pit bull and pit mixes far outnumber every other breed for human bite attacks, consistently, and always make up far more than half (to the tune of ~70%) of all total bites, by breed. Every single year.
Yet people ignore statistics and are eager to jump on the pibble defense train. “My little angel would never bite anyone!”
Maybe. But numbers don’t lie. Just stop breeding them. It’s cruel to people, and it’s cruel to the dogs themselves, that the breed continues to be perpetuated. Breed-specific behaviors are visceral and strong, whether you have a retriever, a pointer, a herder, or a throat mangler. The breed behavior can be invoked at any time, relatively easily.
A friend of my wife and I got a pit bull a couple months ago. She was going on and on about how sweet he is and how he would never hurt anyone. Last week, it mauled her roommate. Nearly took his hand off while he was changing into his work clothes. His career is likely over and she's still defending the dog.
I think that dog is legally required to be put down no?
I have no idea. I know the city animal control has it now. She is trying to get him released, though.
I guess it depends on where you live yeah...
Lets hope it doesnt get to hurt anyone again.
And even with this personal evidence, you get defenders downvoting the story - not because it doesn't add to the discussion, buy because it doesn't suit their narrative.
I hope the roommate is able to find a good surgeon and get the help he needs, that sounds terrible if it could call for a career change.
And even with this personal evidence, you get defenders downvoting the story
I think you and I have different ideas about what the word "evidence" means. A story told by a random user about something that happened to their friend's roommate is not really something I consider or weigh heavily when evaluating things. There could be relevant details omitted from the story, or it could be invented whole cloth, in any case, it isn't statistically significant.
So you've never heard the term "anecdotal evidence" then. I said it adds to the discussion and doesn't deserve downvoting by pitbull white knights, not that it needs to be booked into evidence for the supreme court case to decide the fate of all pit bulls.
Yes, I have in fact heard that term, which is exactly why I know that anecdotal evidence is not valid.
What does invalid evidence add to the discussion, exactly?
There are people in this thread who are arguing for legislation restricting ownership of pitbulls. We are in the court of public opinion, which may be less formal than the supreme court, but still has the capacity to influence public policy. So it seems reasonable to apply a very basic standard of evidence, above that of stuff that random people claim happen to their friend's roommate.
even with this personal evidence, you get defenders downvoting the story - not because it doesn't add to the discussion, buy because it doesn't suit their narrative.
Not really commenting on the claims made in this argument, but this is anecdotal evidence. Meaning that someone who claims all pitbulls are sweet and docile because of their personal experience is just as valid of an argument as someone saying all pitbulls are bad because of their personal experience.
I don't really care about pitbulls one way or the other, but I find it worrying that a lot of the times the debates against the breed follow similar argument structures to those utilized by racist pulling up FBI crime stats about black people.
Maybe. But numbers don’t lie
This is only said by people who've never actually taken a class about statistics.
Numbers may not lie, but they also don't make assertions. People suck at interpreting data and that fact is constantly utilized to mislead people.
I'm not saying this to defend pitbulls, just that bite statistics don't really tell us anything about innate aggression in dog breeds. Just like FBI statistics don't tell us about innate criminality in ethnicity.
Those bite statistics don't make any attempt to rule out misleading variables. It could be that pitt bull bites are reported more often because of the extent of harm they cause. It could be that people who gravitate towards breeds who are thought to be more aggressive are wanting and are training for aggression.
Statistics is hard, and can generally be used to shape opinions on just about anything.
This. It's not neccessarily the breed itself. Look at who is likely to own the breed and what they are likely to do with it.
I understand the bite statistics but you have to keep in mind how those are reported too.
No one is reporting their neighbor's chihuahua taking a bite at their boot. Bites from smaller breeds mostly go unreported.
It does give a point as to why pit bulls and other large breeds are dangerous though. Whether they are more common or not, they certainly are far, far more serious when it happens.
Responsible ownership has always been an issue with pitbulls, as irresponsible people tend to adopt and breed them.
This massively differs per country. Pitbull bites are generally nastier than other bites so they're overreported. It's also partially the public image of pitbulls being nasty dogs that gets them reported more often.
Historically the "most dangerous breed" has changed quite a bit. For a while Great Danes were the worst, then it was Dogo Argentinis, Malinois, German Shepherd, Akitas, Labradors, Jack Russells, etc...
In France for example pitbulls only rank 12th for most bite incidents.
Research on it has been mixed, with studies focusing on nature finding that the breed matters surprisingly little when it comes to aggression. It seems more likely that there's a certain group of owners that handle their dogs irresponsibly, which tend to popularize specific breeds. This seems more likely because places that banned 'dangerous' breeds don't see a decrease in bite attacks; the owners of the dangerous breeds mostly get new dogs, which then just bite people again.
They literally did the opposite with foxes. Some guy kept breeding the nicest ones until he got a "breed" that wouldn't want to murder you on sight. I'm pretty sure levels of aggression absolutely are something innate in some animals.
Exactly. I mean, dogs are wolves that were bred to be less aggressive and more suitable to be companions to human. Of course it can go the other way.
Science and the American Veterinary Medical Association would love to have a word with you. But I guess you do love the literal pitbull hate community so who cares what you think on the matter.
Science
Do you have a source for that? Because everything I've read says completely the opposite. The 'science' I'm aware of says that genetic tendency to aggression is very much a thing, even in humans.
It is a thing, but most controlled studies haven’t found pitbulls to be inherently more aggressive than other breeds, just more dangerous if they happen to attack. Any dog that is poorly socialized will probably attack someone sooner or later, they just weren’t bred to latch on and shred things with their jaws like pitbulls were. So maybe there is a discussion to be had about “dangerous” breeds, but it’s not a genetics one.
It's both. It's insane to me someone can watch animals instinctively display insanely complex behaviors untaught (e.g. herding by australian shepards) and the scientific research to reduce aggression in a related species before coming to the conclusion that there is no way whatsoever that nature is a significant component. Oh, and just completely ignore breeds bred for traits and behaviors seemed desirable for every domesticated animal.
Nature has no place at all it's only nurture. Sure.
Really? "Science"? Hahaha
The "nature/nurture" debate is a question of how much influence each has - it's not a binary question, but a continuum.
And if the AMVA is saying aggression is solely taught, then they lack any credibility whatsoever - that's an utterly unscientific perspective.
I say this having worked with vets, competed in obedience trials, and trained numerous dogs (with the assistance of very successful trainers). Each dog is different, but there are very clear traits in breeds, achieved by... breeding for those traits.
Two things are true at once
(1) Upbringing has an enormous impact on agression in dogs. To the point it actually can be a stronger variable in the prediction than breed.
(2) Some breeds still have stronger tendencies towards agression.
But I agree with this sign’s main point. Banning pitbulls won’t stop the agressive dogs problem. Because the kind of people who usually buy pitbulls raise dogs to be agressive.
The people buying them either raise them to be aggressive or don't even bother doing any work with them and wonder why people don't like pitbulls.
I have a pitbull (American pitbull terrier) that is a rescue. He loves people, but is so aggressive towards other animals that I can hardly believe it.
After having one for years now, I believe there should be some sort of training or licensing requirement before someone can own one. The combination of innate aggression and power is truly dangerous
I can never walk my dog off-leash, I can never hand my dog to someone inexperienced. I love my dog, but responsible ownership is much more burdensome than any other dog I've had.
Yep, adopted a pit bull several years back and had to re-home it after it attacked my border collie twice and if I wasn't nearby he would have killed her.
Got him as a puppy, raised him the exact same way we did the collie. He would just...snap randomly and go into attack mode. I also couldn't believe it. He was great with people though. Other pets and animals was a totally different story.
I can totally confirm with my own experience with our rescue pit as well. He’s a good dog in the house and with our family, but he’s triggered so easily when out in our fenced yard by any other dogs out for a walk. Years ago we made so many attempts to acclimate him to other dogs through training, etc. and nothing worked. We can’t even walk him on a leash because he pulls so hard and chokes himself no matter what we do. But he’s happy to be a house/yard dog and feel like we’ve given him a good life.
im pretty sure aggression is bred in for some dogs for thier purpose of being a gaurd dog, or something as bull baiting. also cats can be unpredictabally aggressive.
It's literally why they're called bully breeds.
Shhh the entire concept of genetics is a big ol conspiracy that makes people who live in a fantasy where they control everything through behavior and education, since that is the only thing they control, really hurt. If you point out some things are destined (yes I know nature/nurture) they lose control because their fantasy collapses by conflicting world views.
This is probably what pebbles (who wouldn't hurt a fly ™️ ) thinks anyway
Fuck pitbulls. There, I said it.
What has Mr. Worldwide done to you to deserve such disrespect?
Aggression is bred. I don't see this as funny.
As someone who has raised and fostered dozens of dogs over the years, actual Pitbull breeds DO tend to have problems with aggression. I had one Pit rescue that absolutely loved people, dogs, and cats, and for a couple of years, it was one of the best dogs I had taken in. Until one day he wasn't, he snapped and almost killed another foster we had.
I have had about a dozen or so mixed bully breeds and breeds like American Bulldogs, and not a single one ever gave me a moments hesitation. There absolutely is something in the full blood Pit breed that is an issue. I honestly believe we could breed aggression out of the breed, but it would more than likely just need to end up a bully mutt breed instead.
If you bred it out of them people wouldn't want them anymore. A lot of people want a big scary dog to protect their kids and them and stuff. But it's the same as a gun which statistically mostly kills the owners lol
Meanwhile, dog breeders over the last century or two:
No, no, no. We specifically bred them with high levels of agression so they'd be more vicious and willing to fighting eachother.
Aggression is not bred
Our Pomeranian Mix: "I would violently murder all of you in your sleep if only I had thumbs."
I have nothing but hate for people that breed problem dogs. Not just talking aggression. But a lot of races have very known medical problems.
Small short dogs very often get back problems. E.g. Corgis, yes they look cute. But very soon they will live in a world of chronic pain. That's not cool.
Don't even get me started on pugs or Chihuahuas...
Yeah so this is wrong.
Even if this were true, it's not just the aggression. It's also the biting power. At the end of the day, I could stomp a Chihuahua, but I get scared when my own 90lb German Shepherd comes running towards me because he is terrible at slowing down.
Yeah, we can breed dogs however we want to, so why not breed dogs that are less dangerous? Not to mention less prone to health issues just because we think they're cute when they have a nose so small that they can barely breathe. Dogs breeds aren't sacred, most of them are a very recent phenomenon. Breed for positive traits, both for them and us.
Ah yes, those pesky chihuahuas and their bite force of 235 PSI and 60% fatal attack rate 🙃
My neighbours had a small hunting terrier when i was a kid, forgot the name of the breed. Fucking asshole dog tried to bite me every time she saw me although i went in and out there every day. Also she killed everything that moved, cats, birds, hedgehogs, ...
Neighbour was a hunter and those fuckers were bred to follow badgers into their sett and kill them. Badgers can be quite nasty themselves so most animals stay away, but not this breed. Only chance the badger has is to kill the dog, even if half of its nose is bitten off, it doesn't give a shit.
So I'm a bit sceptical about the whole "aggression is not bred" theory.
Do you want to bait all the pitbull haters? Because that's how you bait all the pitbull haters.
Welcome to /c/funny, a place for all your humorous and amusing content.
Looking for mods! Send an application to Stamets!
Keep it civil. We're all people here. Be respectful to one another.
No sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia or any other flavor of bigotry. I should not need to explain this one.
Try not to repost anything posted within the past month. Beyond that, go for it. Not everyone is on every site all the time.
Other Communities:
/c/TenForward@lemmy.world - Star Trek chat, memes and shitposts
/c/Memes@lemmy.world - General memes
