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submitted 2 years ago by artichoke@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world
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[-] Coreidan@lemmy.world 66 points 2 years ago

Enshitification continues. For awhile there I thought aviation was the safest industry, due to standards.

Clearly there are no standards anymore and it’s just another industry that’s rotting away thanks to greed and a severe lack of empathy.

I guess I’ll start reconsidering commercial flying.

[-] hobovision@lemm.ee 51 points 2 years ago

This is a sign that there are extremely right safety standards and lots of oversight. The amount of documentation needed for all aerospace parts means it is quite difficult to falsify records for long without getting caught. The fact that any of these types of event are big news and often result in arrests should help you be confident that the standards are real and enforced. There will always be bad actors, and finding them like this is part of reality. Just look at the safety record of commercial aviation to see proof that the system is working.

[-] MargotRobbie@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago

I mean, did everyone suddenly forgot about everything that happened with the 737 Max?

Both the FAA and Boeing should be ashamed.

[-] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 4 points 2 years ago

Plane doesn't work? Eh software will fix it. Software is always rock solid

[-] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 12 points 2 years ago

Finished parts are much harder to verify without damaging them or the finish. We do get training on identifying counterfeits, though.

Planes are still highly over-engineered.

[-] seang96@spgrn.com 8 points 2 years ago

I assume with the strict documentation on parts being put on planes they will have to replace or review any part that came from this distributor?

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[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

Well, the standards are still there, but if people don't adhere to them, profits happen, so they gladly take some ... mishaps into their calculation.

[-] bizzle@midwest.social 2 points 2 years ago

People are always saying "I don't know about Bizzle, that dude won't fly." If I can't drive there, I won't go. You really should consider it, there are a lot of really cool things that you will only ever find out about when you drive past it on a state highway. It somewhat limits my destinations, but North America is a big place that I've yet to see all of so I don't mind so much.

[-] eee@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago

Even our great-grandparents' generation endured weeks-long voyages on steamships to get to other places and cultures.

[-] Awkwardly_Frank@lemmy.world 40 points 2 years ago

So the company selling bogus aircraft parts is called AOG (Aircraft on Ground)?

[-] RoboRay@kbin.social 22 points 2 years ago
[-] postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago
[-] Dettweiler42@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

It's McBoeing now

[-] KernelAddict@artemis.camp 27 points 2 years ago
[-] robbotlove@lemmy.world 39 points 2 years ago

what do they call a med student who graduates bottom of their class?

a doctor.

[-] PetDinosaurs@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Not only that, but you can't really fire doctors unless they do something really, ridiculously bad.

And if we're going to get really cynical, with corporate medicine, there's something of an incentive to keep around bad doctors -- they create more demand.

[-] Dettweiler42@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

What do you call a pilot who lies about their experience and keeps failing remedial training?

Dead in a swamp near Houston (Atlas Air Flight 3591).

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[-] lefixxx@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago

are the parts made out of styrofoam? what does "fake parts" even mean?

ARCs are airworthiness certificates for aircraft parts that ensure they are produced to specific standards. AOG Technics falsified these documents.

so the documents are fake (and I still can't confirm that)

that doesn't mean the parts are out of spec or that they cant do the thing they are supposed to do.

these pose a huge safety risk.

these COULD pose a huge safety risk. Until the parts are tested it is unclear if they are actually bad.

this is a badly written article

[-] Dettweiler42@lemmy.world 74 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I'm going to start off with saying I am a certificated aircraft mechanic, and I've been exercising my privileges as such for several years on both passenger and cargo aircraft for several airframes.

This situation is actually a VERY big deal and it is going to be VERY expensive and time consuming to fix.

When a part is sold or repaired by a manufacturer, it comes with an airworthiness certificate. In the US, this is FAA form 8130-3. It not only certifies that the part conforms to specifications; but it shows who certified it, who tested it, what specs it meets, and the history of the part. Both the airline purchasing the part and the mechanic installing the part need this document to legally repair the aircraft.

There could be a variety of problems with receiving fake parts that slip by SUP inspections (Suspected Unapproved Parts), and these are both legal and safety problems. A fake serial number means you don't know the true history of the part. It could have been pulled from an abandoned aircraft from a third world country, and even though it passed a bench test, it could be a ticking time bomb. It could be a part in exceedence of service hours, but the paperwork that came with it says it's freshly overhauled.

It could just plain not meet specifications. Premature failure is a big deal. Especially when the list of things that can be broken on a plane (MEL / Missing Equipment List) and still be safe for flight depend on a rated level of reliability. As an example, an aircraft can operate with a certain number of brakes not working for a limited period of time (such as up to two inoperative, no more than one per pair, for no longer than 10 days or 10 flight cycles). This assumes that all of your other brakes aren't going to prematurely, simultaneously fail before that time limit is up.

This article specified that these are engine parts, which adds a whole other level of risk to flight safety. The CFM56 from this article can be rated for ETOPS 180, which stands for Extended Operations up to 180 minutes. Normally, twin-engine aircraft are required to remain with 60 minutes of a suitable airport in the event of an emergency. This often limits what routes certain aircraft can take. ETOPS allows certain aircraft to go farther than the 60-minute rule (in this case, up to 180 minutes), which is a huge deal in terms of flight time, efficiency, and simply whether or not they can fly internationally. To maintain ETOPS rating, the aircraft has to meet stricter specifications. These can range anywhere from parts with tighter tolerances, to things like larger oxygen and fire-extinguishing bottles. They also need to be able to start their APU in flight for a source of electricity in the event they lose an engine.

The airline is also limited on the number of in-flight shutdowns they can have. This number is intentionally very low. If the airline as a whole exceeds this number, their fleet-wide ETOPS rating will be revoked.

Parts have to be specifically rated for ETOPS to be installed on an aircraft flying ETOPS routes. Bad parts make this a huge risk. An in-flight shutdown is a very dangerous situation, and bad parts dramatically increase the risk of that becoming a dual engine failure while that plane spends 3 hrs diverting to the closest airport.

Going forward, there is no good way to check if the parts sold actually meet specs until they're disassembled and checked. Directives from the FAA will be issued. Inspections will be performed. Airplanes will be grounded and rectified. The manufacturer might be able to provide a list of parts that need to be recalled, but more than likely EVERY part they issued will be pulled. They may also have their repair station and manufacturing certificate from GE revoked. Even if they don't lose their certification, most of the airlines will avoid them now.

To address the points you made in your comment, lefixxx, false documents mean bad parts. These parts absolutely DO pose a safety risk. They very likely ARE out of spec, timed out, or simply not rated for what the papers say. Even if the part is tested and meets specs, the history of that part is lost. It will need to be overhauled and made "new" again in order to be airworthy.
All of the regulations and strict document control requirements we follow have all been written in blood. People HAVE died because of things like this in the past, and it's our mission to keep it from ever happening again.

Edit:
Here's an excellent article detailing Partnair Flight 394, and the aftermath wherein they discovered a plethora of counterfeit parts not only on the airplane, but also across the industry at the time: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/riven-by-deceit-the-crash-of-partnair-flight-394-f8a752f663f8

[-] RubberElectrons@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

Thank you for the insight here, this chain of trust is interesting.

Sounds like the distributor of the suspect parts has accidentally hurt thir income in a very serious way if airlines are going to start skipping them.

[-] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

Sounds like the distributor of the suspect parts will be very, very lucky if they don't end up in prison.

[-] eee@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago

Can I just say, thank you for the extremely informative post.

This is the kind of comment that reddit was valuable for - being able to jump on a thread about find an obscure expert in pretty much any niche field. Lemmy hasn't really reached a sufficiently large userbase, so seeing a post of this is like a breath of fresh air.

[-] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago

My company had us signing 8130s instead of a DFAR for a while. We caught it after the quality manager went on a crack binge and got fired.

[-] Dettweiler42@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

It's technically legal depending on the circumstances, but that's a lot of liability to sign for.

I don’t think you quite understand the level of rigor that these components are manufactured with. If the documents are not provided, or if they’re counterfeited, the parts are assumed to be out of spec. The precision required for these things, as well as the integrity analysis done after they’re completed, are absolutely critical, and can make the difference between 1000 and 10000 hours MTBF on something like a compressor stage.

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[-] FuglyDuck@lemmy.world 25 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Individual parts could be not a safety risk.

But it is inevitable that if they’re not testing parts, ornwhatever, that parts not meeting standards will come into use.

Which means you’re wrong about this only potentially being a safety risk. It IS a safety risk. Period.

They’re intentionally falsifying documents to save a buck. They should be fucked out of business and the idiots who thought it was a good idea thrown in jail. (That would likely be the Execs.)

[-] Hildegarde@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago

There is no reason to fake the certification documents unless you're not following the required standards.

Why would a manufacturer go through all the effort and expense to make parts at the required standards, with hugely expensive manufacturing, only to take on a huge risk to save a negligible amount on the paperwork? That is a horrible business decision.

[-] teuto@lemmy.teuto.icu 5 points 2 years ago

The paperwork cost isn't negligible at all. For example a company I used to work for had to replace a simple O-ring that failed. It's an old part and quite rare these days and cost $800 to replace. You could buy a functionally equivalent (likely better) uncertified part for about 5 cents. That is why uncertified parts are such a problem, because certified ones are so incredibly expensive. Plenty of companies would love to step in and buy a few thousand O rings and sell them for $400 and a few are willing to forge a paper trail to make it happen. It's a problem that I don't really think will be ever totally solved without making certification too easy and potentially sacrificing safety by having bad certified parts.

[-] tastysnacks@programming.dev 4 points 2 years ago

If you spent $800 on an oring and it fails and the plane goes down, the manufacturer is liable. If you spent $0.05 on the oring and the plane goes down, you're liable. Like you said, paperwork isn't cheap. Because its basically liability insurance. If you made the oring, would you accept liability for $0.05?

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[-] Actaeon@artemis.camp 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

these COULD pose a huge safety risk. Until the parts are tested it is unclear if they are actually bad.
this is a badly written article

The article is correct. The safety risk is that the parts COULD be dangerous to use. Whether the parts are actually defective or not is irrelevant because they don’t know; that’s what makes them a risk.

[-] RedditWanderer@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago

Yes these COULD pose a safety risk, until they are tested it's unclear they are actually GOOD.

FTFY.

Air travel is one of the safest modes of transportation because we have these measures in place and take them seriously.

And importantly, it wasn’t safe for a very long time, specifically because these rules and regs weren’t yet written. A TON of flight safety laws, rules, and guidelines have been written in direct response to accidents that have destroyed planes and killed everyone on them, so it’s actually quite accurate to say those rules are written in blood.

[-] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 years ago

If any of the paperwork is missing or falsified the part is scrap. When we buy material it comes with certified reports on the alloy's component elements.

Inconel is often used around engines for heat resistance. If it has too much of an element that changes at what temperature it becomes ductile you could lose some very important components or systems.

Steel doped with sulfur raises its embrittlement temperature.

They'll be tested to sort out the urgency of the corrective action, but those parts are scrap. Also, someone might be going to prison.

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[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 years ago

Is it insane to play Russian roulette? There's a good chance nothing will happen if you pull that trigger, right?

By definition, risk means there is no guarantee of a specific outcome. There is no risk of falling if you jump off a cliff (without special aids) - you just fall. Smoking increases your risk of cancer. Bob Hope lived to 100, apparently cancer-free, while smoking. Neither of these statements are untrue, he just didn't suffer the results those risks indicated. While that's good for him, it's not the attitude I want taken with aircraft parts.

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[-] Nastybutler@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago

Enjoy bankruptcy, fuckers!

[-] RotatingParts@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

Yet another reason not to fly.

[-] n3m37h@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 years ago

I've had lots of experience with Brits and they are the worst people. This does not surprise me in the slightest

[-] jbxr97@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago

Not sure how one company based in London doing something wrong makes all Brits "the worst people" but alright

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this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2023
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