484
submitted 3 months ago by HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works to c/canada@lemmy.ca

Prime Minister Mark Carney has asked for a review of Canada’s plan to purchase a fleet of F-35 fighter jets.

The deal with Lockheed Martin and the U.S. government is for 88 planes at a cost of about US$85 million each.

A spokesperson for Defence Minister Bill Blair said Carney has asked Blair to look into whether the F-35 contract is the best investment for Canada, or if there are better options.

“We need to do our homework given the changing environment, and make sure that the contract in its current form is in the best interests of Canadians and the Canadian Armed Forces,” Blair’s press secretary Laurent de Casanove said.

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[-] Punchshark@lemmy.ca 84 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Fuck yeah! Canada will vote with its dollar!

[-] hikuro93@lemmy.ca 63 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Heck yeah. Go Carney.

With love from Portugal. 🇵🇹🤝🇨🇦

[-] Kyle_The_G@lemmy.world 18 points 3 months ago

Welcome to the carnival!

or

CARNAGE!

[-] brax@sh.itjust.works 47 points 3 months ago

Seems stupid to buy defense resources from a country that could become hostile. Do any European companies have anything to offer? I get that GOS and a lot of resources are still probably going to come from the USA but right now, the less the better.

[-] CircaV@lemmy.ca 38 points 3 months ago

It also seems stupid to keep importing on a mass scale the culture, news, entertainment, media, and media platforms of a country that wants to invade Canada. Yet here we are.

[-] fourish@lemmy.world 21 points 3 months ago

I would be thrilled if all American social media was blocked 100%. Sweep the trolls back into their caves.

[-] CircaV@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 months ago

I’d love that too.

[-] BetaBlake@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

I mean to be fair this hostility is being perpetrated by one man and just in the past 2 months. Zero of those things would change in that short amount of time.

[-] CircaV@lemmy.ca 6 points 3 months ago

It began with one man then was instantly magnified by major news agencies (Fox, CNN) and by his millions of cultish sycophants who hang off his every word.

[-] Lemmyoutofhere@lemmy.ca 23 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)
[-] slingstone@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I read somewhere they operate with a licensed American engine, and that some European nations are trying to replace it with a non-American one.... Yeah, it's a development of an F-18 engine.

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[-] Tm12@lemmy.ca 30 points 3 months ago

Something we can train on and maintain within our borders please.

[-] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 28 points 3 months ago

Canada could do the funniest thing rn by buying J-35s at half the price.

[-] BetaBlake@lemmy.world 28 points 3 months ago

It would be funny, but damn I would not want to buy military equipment from china

[-] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 14 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

China is Canada's second biggest trade partner, unless they're planning to follow America to war with China, what's the problem? Especially because it's for a military that was designed for the singular purpose of defending itself from an American invasion over the last 70 years.

[-] AnarchoDakosaurus@toast.ooo 8 points 3 months ago

The Canadian public isint ready to swallow it yet but that's where it's going to end up at. China and Iran have been preparing for this scenario for the last 20+ years.

They have all the kit and more needed, and in the right quantity too. In time. People still don't really belive Trump would push the button. The closer he gets the more open to this reality people will become.

[-] HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 months ago

What's the problem?? China has shown its intent in other parts of the world with its 'belt and road' initiative and, tbh, Canada has little incentive to join that. Never mind the fact that the scumbag Stephen Harper locked us into a decidedly one-sided, 31 year long FIPPA with China that can't end until 2045.

Added to that is all the money laundering and fraud that China committed here beginning in the '90s.

Most Canadians are aware of this stuff, so are wary of joining forces with China in any way, shape or form.

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[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 13 points 3 months ago

USA: We want to annex Canada. We are not joking

Canadians: Ooh China is very scary.

[-] Sixtyforce@sh.itjust.works 24 points 3 months ago

He's keeping up decorum but yeah these jets are done. You can't buy military equipment from an enemy and the jets would have to be serviced in the USA over their lifetime.

[-] nao@sh.itjust.works 19 points 3 months ago

maybe don't rely on fighter jets than can possibly be disabled remotely by someone talking about invading you

[-] halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world 16 points 3 months ago

Messing with the military industrial complex is not the smartest move for Trump. All that will do is turn the military against him.

[-] Bubbaonthebeach@lemmy.ca 16 points 3 months ago

It always seemed strange that Canada would agree (how much arm twisting?) to buy a plane that won't work well in our Arctic. We are committed to buying 16 jets but it would probably be better to buy the rest elsewhere or put our money into homegrown solutions. Maybe drones or other machines.

[-] Barbarian@sh.itjust.works 25 points 3 months ago

Excuse me sir, may I interest you in Gripen? Cold weather tested, fascist free, and oh so stylish. Book your test flight today!

[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

Maybe we should be looking at what we need for city close quarters defenses and guerilla fighting.

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[-] Grimpen@lemmy.ca 10 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

F-35 is the most advanced aircraft currently available. We've also already sunk enough money into the program to pay for the first 16 IIRC. This puts us in an awkward position, considering the possibility of degraded functionality of the F-35 without US assistance^1^.

One of the worst ways to balloon military spending without getting anything in return is to keep changing your mind and hanging procurement up in endless indecision. Combined with the money already spent, I think we have to stick with F-35 for at least a bit.

I like the Gripen, and I'd suggest a switching some of our 88 fighters to Gripen's, but apparently Gripen's aren't that much cheaper.

Long term though, I think Canada should get in on GCAP, the Global Combat Air Program. It's not expected to deliver until 2035 if everything sticks to plan, so we'd still need the F-35 or Gripens I was mentioning in the interim.


^1^ My understanding is that the "kill-switch" myth is pretty much that, a myth. There are software systems that depend on the US, apparently ALIS/ODIN, plus the MDF file updates. The possibility of a kill-switch can't be totally excluded IMO though, there is a lot of software in the F-35, and the US writes and patches it all. Even if there isn't a kill-switch, the US knows what vulnerabilities they are patching, and if any of them where exploitable, I'd imagine they'd know.

[-] Greg@lemmy.ca 17 points 3 months ago

F-35 is the most advanced aircraft currently available

As long as you can service and maintain them. Without a reliable supply chain for parts and servicing, they’re just expensive decorations.

[-] bulwark@lemmy.world 14 points 3 months ago

Absolutely. This is the true "kill switch". Turning off support for most US made weapons means killing them.

[-] Fluke@lemm.ee 7 points 3 months ago

As I've said elsewhere the ECM pod updates can only be done by US staff. Without this week's pod frequencies to hit the latest radar frequencies, the plane is a liability in the air because of it's cost.

There is no way the US is going to code "enemy" planes' ECM.

The F-35 program may well flatline from this upset.

[-] bulwark@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

Uncle Sam keeps his ECM frequencies under a pretty tight lock and key, speaking as someone who's had to service ALQ-99 pods.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 months ago

F-35 is the most advanced aircraft currently available

in west, but it may also be too advanced as root cause of its reliability and maintenance cost problems.

sunk enough money into the program to pay for the first 16

should demand refund for those 16.

apparently Gripen’s aren’t that much cheaper.

$85m vs $109m is a fair bit cheaper. Again, the maintenance costs and flight readiness metrics matter significantly.

There are software systems that depend on the US, apparently ALIS/ODIN, plus the MDF file updates.

We don't need to focus on whether there is a "mid air kill switch or not", when we know there is a "make this a paper weight switch". Naive or disingenuous of you to say "if Lockheed finds a kill switch, they would surely patch it out"

[-] Fluke@lemm.ee 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

The key thing you're missing here is that the programming of the ECM pod, the thing that makes the F-35 able to do what it does, the thing it's just an average 6th gen fighter without, is only done by US personnel.

Even if you could make the entire plane locally, parts wise, the US will not ever give out the pod code. Ever.

Because without it, the plane is worth less than nothing, it's a liability.

[-] supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Also, even without any malicious back doors it is still likely far easier to attack the software and electronic vulnerabilities of the aircraft as you said.

[-] kbal@fedia.io 10 points 3 months ago

For the $70 billion it would apparently cost in total to have these super fancy fighter jets, they could instead build a million new low-cost housing units and still have some money left over to work on inventing innovative air defence systems that aren't so expensive..

[-] HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works 22 points 3 months ago

6 months ago I would have agreed with you. Unfortunately now we have to focus on saving Canada.

[-] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 months ago

They could also build a high speed rail from Toronto to Quebec, something the people could actually use.

[-] kbal@fedia.io 5 points 3 months ago

You're underestimating the size of $70 billion. It's more like high-speed rail to every major city in the country.

[-] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Nah, $70 billion is about right, and that's a conservative estimate. If it turns out anything like california high speed rail then it could definitely go into $100 billion territory.

Common law countries like the u.s., Canada and u.k. are really inefficient at building hsr due to property rights issues. California is still struggling to build its hsr even though it's scope has been reduced, its budget keeps ballooning. Similarly, the hs2 project in England to connect London to Manchester has also been cut back to just Birmingham, and it's also over budget ringing in £ 50 billion for just that section.

If this were china then yeah you could probably get a Vancouver to Quebec line for $70 billion, but the Canadian central government isnt that strong and would have to deal with a lot more regulations.

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[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 months ago

Canada. Doesn't. Need. Fighter. Jets.

[-] Lemmyoutofhere@lemmy.ca 14 points 3 months ago

Maybe you should pay better attention to what is going on in the world right now.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Is Russia going to invade Canada? 🙄

I fucking hate how liberals have turned into NatSec war hawks and are demanding every country from Canada to Portugal buy more fucking fighter jets. Instead of wasting money on the MIC how about they invest in their people?

[-] HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works 14 points 3 months ago

Trump has said on multiple occasions that Canada WILL become the 51st state. In order to keep at least a modicum of democracy alive here we must fight to save it, because every form of diplomacy we've tried has failed.

Trump wants Canada under his thumb, and when someone tells you who they are and what they want, believe them.

So yes, we need everything we can get to help the nation survive, including fighter jets ... although tbf I'm not even sure we'd get them in time. But we have to try, no matter what.

If that's not your thing, fine. You have every right to choose differently. But don't condemn those of us who are willing to fight.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Trump says a lot of stupid shit.

But let's entertain the idea that he's serious and that he will be allowed to start a war on Canada. Do you think Canada can buy enough jets to even matter? Can you even imagine how much that would cost? Is there even enough productive capacity in the world for those jets to be delivered in less than ten years? Come on.

If it comes to a fight against the US the best strategy is guerilla warfare. It's been tried and tested from Vietnam to Iraq!

[-] HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works 11 points 3 months ago

Trump says a lot of stupid shit.

Yes he does, but strangely enough he's followed through with a lot more of it in his 2.0 incarnation.

Do you think Canada can buy enough jets to even matter?

As I said previously I'm not even sure we could have any delivered before the conflict began. But that shouldn't negate us at least trying.

Can you even imagine how much that would cost?

Yes, billions of dollars.

Would you also recommend that Ukraine stop spending money it doesn't have to fight Russia? I sure hope not.

Is there even enough productive capacity in the world for those jets to be delivered in less than ten years?

Already answered more than once.

If it comes to a fight against the US the best strategy is guerilla warfare.

Agreed. That is what we will end up in. I'm wondering why you wouldn't want more fighting power tho?

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[-] Gammelfisch@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

Prime Minister Carney, I have several better solutions. Cancel the F-35 and examine the Saab JAS-39 Gripen, Dassault Rafael, or the Eurofighter Typhoon.

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this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2025
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