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submitted 1 month ago by misk@sopuli.xyz to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[-] mctoasterson@reddthat.com 71 points 1 month ago

I love how the trend in tech seems to be to shift 100% of responsibility for professional development to the employee.

"Just get some certs on your own and build a homelab."

Yeah, I have 2 degrees and a bunch of certs, of which many require CEU or renewal costs. Everytime I ask for professional development it's "yeah there might be some budget for this one specific thing next quarter".

[-] sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip 63 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

This has always been the case, but in the US, basically no tech employers actually treat their junior employees as apprentices, they treat them as temporary contractors, and are thus unable to maintain any consistent kind of institutional knowledge, which then reinforces the loop of relying for contractors for everything a small level of hierarchical steps under C Suite.

[-] GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 27 points 1 month ago

They've basically brought over the broken ladder of the management track, over to the technical track of increased technical expertise (without necessarily increasing management/administrative responsibilities).

Currently, each generation of executives doesn't come from within the company. There's no simple path from mail room to executive anymore. Now, you have to leave the company to go get an MBA, then get hired by a consulting firm, then consult with that company as a client, before you're on track to make senior management at the company.

If the technical track is going this way, too, then these companies are going to become more brittle, and the current generation of entry level workers are going to hit a lot more career dead ends. It's bad for everyone.

[-] sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip 28 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Currently, each generation of executives doesn't come from within the company.

This in particular I find to be just the most astonishingly duplicitous, completely full of shit thing about American Tech Corps.

They are masters of lying to you and telling you that if you work hard, perform well, blah blah, you'll adcance through the ranks.

All outward oriented 'how to be a good employee' type media propaganda says you need to be loyal and stop job hopping.

All these motherfuckers job hop all the fucking time and they know they do!

EDIT: After a decade in the tech industry, I got assaulted and just give off of disability now, basically in poverty.

There is literally no amount of money you could pay me (lets be real, promise to pay me and then not actually pay me that much) to get back into the tech industry.

My QoL is 100,000x improved not having to deal with the constant deceptive office politics, utterly incompetent managers and useless projects.

You're 100% right about 'what even is a career path'.

They don't exist.

Barring super basic stuff like an A* or whatever to be a basic network techy, certs are required or desired certs are constantly changing, as are required skillsets and experience in general.

None of the HR people that write job descriptions have any clue what the words theyre using mean.

They kept inflating 'required years working with X program or language', and everyone just started lying on all their resumes.

The hiring process is a theatre of the absurd.

[-] _NetNomad@fedia.io 49 points 1 month ago

The CIO said 'Why do we need a wiring closet, we're a cloud first company'."

you have to laugh, because otherwise you'd cry

[-] 01189998819991197253@infosec.pub 16 points 1 month ago

That's why CTO and VP of IT exist. CIO concerns themselves with information, while the CTO or VP of IT handles the technology behind the information as well as the information. CIO is a generally useless position IMO; a title with little expertise in anything relevant.

[-] BakerBagel@midwest.social 16 points 1 month ago

Any job who's acronym is "CXO" is generally useless, correct

[-] 01189998819991197253@infosec.pub 6 points 1 month ago

Chief eXcess Officer hahahahaha

[-] rumschlumpel@feddit.org 48 points 1 month ago

This is already literally how it works in Germany. You can also get in with a college/university degree, especially for software dev jobs, but nowadays it's pretty unusual that people who enter the field just have no related education at all.

[-] Earflap@reddthat.com 48 points 1 month ago
[-] notgold@aussie.zone 2 points 1 month ago

This. Unionise people. It's a benefit for all

[-] TowardsTheFuture@lemmy.zip 41 points 1 month ago

What you mean with things that advance continually but also every business uses a different solution you can’t expect someone who have a perfect understanding of 6976 different possible solutions used coming out of college? What are we even teaching these kids if not every possible current and legacy software of any possible IT application and the differences between each version of each. Geez.

[-] Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 26 points 1 month ago

Token ring networks is what they spent quite a bit of time teaching us about, in 2016. Perhaps fair enough to mention it as a thing that existed but they taught this stuff to us like it was current.

[-] TowardsTheFuture@lemmy.zip 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That’s the biggest problem with learning tech from a college: developing, vetting, publishing, and adopting curriculum all take a good chunk of time. More time than it takes for new tech to arise.

It’s not hard to see going to trainings/expos/etc. on new/current/upcoming tech while working at a business is going to be a lot more useful than learning 5-20 year old tech in college.

Now, I’m mostly just assuming things as I did not go to college for tech, but I work in education so I know how things typically go.

[-] deranger@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I don’t feel college is about teaching you how to do so much as it is about teaching you how to critically think and teach yourself.

I’m currently working in healthcare IT as an EMR analyst, I’ve got a degree in biochemistry. My IT experience is from fucking with my own computer since ~1999. I don’t feel I missed out on much by not getting a degree relevant to my current career.

I never performed a Western blot a single time outside of a classroom lab but learning that process, how it worked, the precision and attention to detail needed to do the thing, how to troubleshoot a failed test, etc have been relevant regardless if I’m doing clinical lab stuff or implementing a new cardiology computer system.

Then again I also didn’t go to college for tech so maybe I’m not understanding the issue here. Are people in IT not expected to learn on the job about how things are done at that organization? That’s been my admittedly narrow experience in the field.

[-] TowardsTheFuture@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 month ago

yeah the article is about companies literally not offering to train people and how skill gaps exist we aren’t filling because companies expect people to come in already knowing stuff and they basically only hire college grads for entry level answer phone bullshit and expect them to experiment on their own and learn their own shit if they want a real job.

I agree in general an AA is general knowledge and critical thinking, a BS should give you specific knowledge to your job, while maybe not exactly what you need to do, at least enough to enter and be able to figure out most things.

The problem with tech is A: how fast it evolves makes it hard to just teach old stuff and say yeah it just works the same because it very often is a completely different solution. And B: science has been around for ages so labs that can teach general skills actually necessary have been developed and businesses that deal with science understand you need to train employees on protocols and how to use your Lims system or whatever. Tech industry is just wild where people who don’t understand it also run it and thus assume everyone who knows it can do whatever because it’s all the same.

[-] ITeeTechMonkey@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

I had a similar experience where we had an entire class for Novell Directory Services. The reason our teacher gave for keeping the class in the curriculum? We MAY run into it in the workforce.

[-] dditty@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago

My org literally still uses Novell in conjunction with AD

[-] AtariDump@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

I’m so sorry.

[-] SnortsGarlicPowder@lemmy.zip 38 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Not surprising where the only way to get tech jobs is to have 5 years experience or work service desk and hope someone whos job you want gets hit by a bus.

[-] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 17 points 1 month ago

I just had this argument with my HR team. I want to hire some people straight out of college and train them. They want to spend 15k more and get someone with experience.

But where do those people magically come from?

[-] Pika@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 month ago

I'm amazed people want "experienced" workers. Like trying to untrained an "incorrectly" trained worker is a pain in the ass. Like fresh out of college at least you have a base standard, once they have experience in the field you never know what you are going to get.

[-] SnortsGarlicPowder@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 month ago

Surprised they actually want to pay them 15k more and not what they would pay a recent graduate if I am honest.

[-] figjam@midwest.social 2 points 1 month ago

They believe experience = better. In some cases that can be correct like sales.

[-] SecondaryAnnetagonist 10 points 1 month ago

You guys are getting helpdesk jobs?

[-] Xatolos@reddthat.com 9 points 1 month ago

They now want five years of experience for service desk now.

[-] JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 27 points 1 month ago

This is sort of how I got my start as a network engineer in the US, a dozen or so years ago.

There was a large skills gap in the area (still is, IMO)...so the company started hiring people that had no training but had a good technical aptitude with the intent to train them directly.

I know a lot of really great engineers that got their start through that program.

The company has since been bought, and bought again. We've all mostly scattered to the wind. But I still run into some of them every now and then as vendors for my current employer...our current VoIP consultant came from that program, and honestly I don't know anybody who knows IP Telephony better than him.

[-] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 month ago

Over 15 years ago I proposed to a number of universities what could best be described as an apprentice program. Our clients were interested but because there was no defined income stream to the university (they wanted us to pay them to allow us to teach their soon to be graduates) nobody bit. We have been sounding the alarm about Gen-X retiring for years, but nobody wants to hear it. Now a lot of my colleagues are starting to leave the sector or move out of the US to and scale down their hours. Covering their roles is going to be a struggle.

[-] MutilationWave@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 month ago

A shitload of people are being fired from the government, I imagine plenty of them would be worthwhile replacements. It's just that training takes time. I was working as the employee for a contractor in IT/infrastructure to a global giant up until a month ago.

My former co-workers talk to me regularly, they are getting screwed without me. Yet the company won't call me up because pride. They wanted me to come back as an independent contractor at a lower wage. I won't because pride. It's fun. I gotta get a job soon though.

Right now they are paying two people a bit more than half what I was getting and they are fucking shit up because there's no real training, let alone apprenticeship. Sink or swim.

[-] reddthat_209@reddthat.com 13 points 1 month ago

One annoying thing I've noticed about certifications is that you have to get them for certain jobs but only use 20-30% of the subject matter you have to study in order to obtain them for the actual job...

[-] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Certifications are there to assure the employer that A) you know something B) you are able to be trained. The reason you use 20-30% is because few jobs on the planet require you to know everything. The certification assures that you are at least well read on whatever 20-30% is thrown your way.

[-] Zorsith 7 points 1 month ago

Literally the only thing i really used on a regular basis from Sec+, is extremely basic PKI (private/public keys). I got it to meet 8570 requirements.

I learned far more useful skills on the job.

[-] thesmokingman@programming.dev 5 points 1 month ago

As a hiring manager, I don’t give a shit about certs. AWS certs, for example, serve primarily as marketing material and free money. Soft skill certs like agile methodology (of which I have several) are equally bullshit in that everything is a pattern not a prescription yet many people miss that and shoot their teams in the foot. There are some security certs I do value, such as CISSP, because they can be required for certain industries and actually do carry some gravitas. Even those, though, aren’t necessarily valuable for the things I actually need my security folks to do.

I’d say the market is maybe 30/70 split with folks like me and ATS or idiot hiring managers thinking your ability to memorize the specific GCP settings no one uses will actually make you understand why prod blew up. I refuse to get any; I actively support my team getting them as long as they know what they’re getting into.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I read a mini rant from someone here recently about how software shops all fired their elder mentor employees because they didn’t close enough tickets, and spent all their time growing others’ skills. Similar theme.

But there is one problem here. When people possess a rare skill, they often don’t want to pass it on to anyone else. Keeping the skill rare is how you keep it valuable. And young employees who acquire a skill somewhere will immediately put it on the open market to maximize their pay. So employers are reluctant to invest big in their training.

Is it the right thing for the world to have apprenticeships? Sure. Is it the right thing for employers to invest in them? Yes, but they don’t because they are short sighted but also because they know that skills are portable and employees have no loyalty. Is it the right thing for veterans with a certain skill to pass it on? Dubious, unless they have some guarantee that the apprentice will support them somehow in exchange.

Basically everyone acts in their self interest against the interests of the whole. And it’s not just employers doing so. It’s us too.

[-] deathbird@mander.xyz 3 points 1 month ago

Co-ops and collectives can help bridge the gap between management interest and worker interest.

[-] shikitohno@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago

they know that skills are portable and employees have no loyalty.

In fairness, this is also down to companies having no loyalty to their employees. I would be more than happy to never have to go job hunting again, if career jobs, with appropriate incentives, were still a thing that actually exists. I am substantially less enthusiastic about the prospect of spending my entire working life dedicated to a single company that will not give me annual raises that beat inflation or any sort of pension as a reward for my loyalty, while my working conditions and benefits will likely deteriorate over time at the whims of a rotating group of petty tyrants in management, and the prospect of getting laid off because some dipshit in the C-suite implemented a terrible idea that anyone with the least amount of experience doing the actual work could have told them was doomed from the start and saved everyone suffering the consequences of their dumbass vanity project to pad their resume for when they pull the cord on their golden parachute and jump ship to sink another business.

I suspect a lot of people would be quite content at having the stability of such a position, if only the trade-offs weren't so terrible for them in pretty much every other way. The vague possibility of a farewell party at the end of 40+ years of work doesn't cut it.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Yep you’re right about all that. It’s a tough situation because it not only requires both employers and employees to behave correctly, it also requires all companies to be doing so at once. If one company makes big investments in skills and gives steady raises annually, but another company offers a little more salary right now, guess where employees are going to go. It may not even be in their long term interests to do so but we sometimes think short term too.

It’s going to be tough for any company to offer all the long term stability things and the short term higher salary. TBH this is what you get at the top tech companies right now and everyone hates them for being exploitative monopolies. But that’s also how they stand head and shoulders above others in order to be able to do this stuff. 🤷‍♂️

BTW when I say they offer long term stability I guess there are no guarantees with that, but they do offer equity vesting that makes staying with them long term much more rewarding. Right now I’m totally locked into the golden handcuffs and even through my short term prospects at work suck really badly and I hate my day to day, I’d basically be cutting my income by half if I left to get a job on the open market. That ain’t a long term employment contract or pension but it is compelling.

[-] FE80@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

I'm mildly horrified that Alexis Bertholf is viewed as the voice of tech on this issue

[-] craigers@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

💯. Maximize your visibility not your capability.

[-] vane@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Maybe young people will abandon internet like we are slowly abandoning newspapers, radio and television. It's just a matter of time when new generation will say they don't want to use tech and want to spend their time elsewhere and nobody will force them not to do it.

All of internet concept is based on belief that without using internet you are missing something. People are hypnotised on missing of the information or message. But does it really matter ? Can you really hypnotize young people that they will die without using internet ? That they will be stupid without using AI ? What if some generation during evolution process will develop anti internet gene. We are living organisms not robots.

100 years ago nobody would believe that you will earn a living by sitting in front of tv with a typewriter yet here we are.

[-] IDrawPoorly@lemm.ee 4 points 1 month ago

All of internet concept is based on belief that without using internet you are missing something. People are hypnotised on missing of the information or message.

What?!

Can you really hypnotize young people that they will die without using internet ?

wat

Just wat

[-] vane@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

[object Object]

[-] _g_be@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

This is an interesting idea, but the world is moving toward having everything digital. I imagine it being nearly impossible to live a life nearly entirely analog, and the youths only engage in what is strictly necessary, but can't abandon fully

[-] DjMeas@lemm.ee 4 points 1 month ago

I'm currently working with a team of a few seniors and the rest mid-levels. I've helped get a few juniors hired but they've buckled under the pressure after 6 months.

They studied development at school and did great with their classwork but perhaps they thought they knew a lot and ended up realizing that they barely scratched the surface.

Though not required to learn deeper aspects of development, having a team, partner or mentor goes a heck of a long way. It's like learning the piano. You can hit all the right notes but it doesn't mean you have musicality.

[-] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 month ago

I'm also looking forward to working a couple of days a week, training and coaching young developers.

this post was submitted on 27 Feb 2025
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