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submitted 3 days ago by Ju135@lemmings.world to c/privacy@lemmy.ml

We all know Signal, Matrix, Telegram, SimpleX, etc... But if you can't access the internet you can't communicate. Pretty logic. But would it be possible, at least theoretically, to create an app that permits to message people even if the internet goes down?

It might be a dumb question I really have no idea to be honest.

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[-] Gayhitler@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 days ago

It’s not p2p but at least many years ago:

SMS.

If the Internet outage is local then the towers would still work and you’d be able to get texts. I went through a few storms where wired home internet was down, the towers weren’t giving me a data connection (no mobile web browsing or anything), but I was able to send and receive texts.

If you really care about what you’re asking after, do what someone else said and get a radio license. It’s 150 year old technology and every time something happens radio operators pop up some kind of emergency communications or bridge to the internet through repeaters or something.

[-] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 10 points 2 days ago

Briar or meshtastic

[-] Earflap@reddthat.com 20 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Depending on how far you're willing to push the definition of "messaging" you could look into getting your ham radio license. It can't possibly be censored and allows you to communicate all over the world. You can even build your own radios if a government cracks down on them for some reason.

[-] jbrjake@lemmy.world 53 points 3 days ago

The first thing that comes to mind is Meshtastic: https://meshtastic.org/

[-] Ju135@lemmings.world 1 points 2 days ago

Thanks I'll take a look!

[-] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 35 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Briar (Android Only) - Uses Bluetooth, Wifi, or Internet via Tor to communicate. You can theretically create a large mesh group with enough users. Think of protests where the government shuts down the internet. Downside is, bluetooth range is 10 meters 😓.


Also: You can send encrypted text over SMS using Secure Space Encryptor (SSE) (known as Paranoia Text Encryption on iOS). It's an Open Source app that can encrypt text.

  1. Type text
  2. Copy the Ciphertext
  3. Send and tell the recipient to use SSE fo decrypt.

You both have to share a password/passphrase over a secure channel, then use that to encrypt and decrypt.

Or PGP (there are mobile apps), but they aren't quantum resistant. If someone intercept and stores them, it could be decrypted later. So I recomment Symmetric Encryption like AES 256 (so use SSE for better security, since they use AES 256)


You can also encrypt a radio:

Rattlegram is an app on iOS/Android that alllows converting text to audio and play it over your phone’s speaker.

As mentioned before, SSE.

  1. Use SSE to encrypt text
  2. Copy-Paste the Ciphertext to Rattlegram
  3. Sent it over the radio
  4. On the other end, use Raddlegram to turn the audio back to the ciphertext
  5. Use SSE to decrypt.

Voila! Off-Grid Encrypted communications.

Warning: Encryption over Ham Radio bands is illegal in many countries 😉 (but fuck the law lol, who cares)

There's also Meshtastic, but it has much shorter range, but, in the USA at least, they aren't "Ham Radio" so they (supposedly) can be encrypted legally.

[-] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 16 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

This was a common thing that was developed for the international protests after Arab Spring, which would frequently have their Internet shut down as a State tactic to prevent communication amongst protestors.

Mesh net chat apps like FireChat were born in response

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireChat

Edit: apparently wikipedia says it wasn't developed for protests, it just happened to be released at the same time

[-] asudox@lemmy.asudox.dev 2 points 2 days ago
[-] root@lemmy.world 23 points 3 days ago

Meshtastic can be encrypted and is LoRa based. Can easily hit nodes dozens of miles away with a good line of sight. It also relays messages across nodes to reach even further distances.

[-] theroff@aussie.zone 7 points 3 days ago

yggmail is a fairly obscure and experimental take on email on a mesh network: https://github.com/neilalexander/yggmail

[-] joshieboy@lemm.ee 2 points 2 days ago

Would this work through something like meshtastic?

[-] theroff@aussie.zone 2 points 2 days ago

yggmail specifically, probably not. yggdrasil uses TCP/IP and the Meshtastic latencies to perform connections would be too high AFAIK. It would probably only work in a fairly well-connected network. yggdrasil could be used directly over a WiFi protocol but it would need fairly good reception to function.

N.B. I haven'texperimented with this myself.

[-] turbowafflz@lemmy.world 32 points 3 days ago

I mean this is a terrible answer, but DS pictochat fits that

[-] LazerDickMcCheese@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 days ago

No joke, I was talking about this recently. I feel like niche groups (me included) are just going full-circle back to the DS days

[-] Ju135@lemmings.world 2 points 2 days ago

pictochat FTW

[-] Ferk@lemmy.ml 11 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Yes, it's possible. To be honest, I find it very sad that we have grown so dependent on ISP and big telecom companies to have a working network.

In theory, you could have an infrastructure in your neighborhood and be able to play Quake with your neighbors without making use of the phone line at all, completely free of monthly fees and with a very efficient and fast connection too! you'd just need cabling connecting the apartments/houses and some decent routers controlling/restricting access on each subnet. It's a pity that's not a standard thing when designing residences.

Though less efficient and more limited in range, you can technically do it with Wifi and mesh networking too... there are projects like B.A.T.M.A.N (https://www.open-mesh.org/), however, it's not very user-friendly to set up. I believe there have been some projects that attempted to launch embedded devices to act as mini routers for this, but the spread has not been wide enough to make it worth it, sadly.

[-] fireshell@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 days ago

positive-intentions is a decentralised P2P chat app. https://positive-intentions.com/

[-] Master@lemm.ee 5 points 2 days ago

Yea but there are android versions too. Its to send files over WiFi direct phone to phone with no network but some also have chat.

[-] Ju135@lemmings.world 3 points 2 days ago

Oh interesting! I'll take a look into it thanks.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 days ago

Surprised nobody mentioned scuttlebutt yet https://scuttlebutt.nz/

[-] VubDapple@real.lemmy.fan 8 points 3 days ago

SSB can use the internet to share encrypted messages via hubs/servers, but it also can share the same messages peer to peer in a mesh sort of setup without the internet using a 'gossip' protocol within a local network. It was invented by a sailor who was regularly away from WiFi due to being at sea.

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Briar has a mesh mode. And i think there was a matrix app doing this too?

[-] elperronegro@lemmy.world 11 points 3 days ago

Check out Reticulum Network Stack using LORA radio. Works really well.

http://reticulum.network/

[-] Deckweiss@lemmy.world 17 points 3 days ago
[-] foremanguy92_@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 days ago

If you don't want to use internet the only ways are to use radio or deploy your own network infrastructure (optic fiber or cell tower), so there's no really any messaging app that can be used without internet. Briar can use Bluetooth but with a limited range, needing an actual dense mesh network.

[-] QuazarOmega@lemy.lol 15 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Besides the already mentioned Briar, there's Berty, can't speak to its quality since I never used it, but I always found the project neat in and of itself

[-] Ju135@lemmings.world 2 points 2 days ago

I found Berty yesterday just after making this post. But as a neophyte in cryptography and everything, how am I supposed to know which one is better for my privacy ? (e.g. between Briar and Berty) Because right now the only thing that I have is what the apps are "telling" me so... Yeah I don't know how to chose.

[-] QuazarOmega@lemy.lol 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Honestly if you don't want to think too much about it, go with Briar, it's way more battle tested, while Berty seems like it hasn't seen much adoption since it's younger, both have a bit of development activity I saw, so I can't say if one is more or less maintained than the other

As for the actual question of gauging which has the better cryptographical implementation, I don't know either, beside the most surface level information I know very little.
I believe if you want to look into it, you'll have to start from their whitepapers

[-] Earflap@reddthat.com 3 points 3 days ago

Woah Briar is really cool. I think this is like what I want Signal to be.

[-] bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net 10 points 3 days ago

There used to be one years ago that used WiFi radios or Bluetooth or whatever so you could chat to people near you... I totally forget what it was called though.

[-] transitinoir@slrpnk.net 12 points 3 days ago
[-] mp3@lemmy.ca 4 points 3 days ago

Bridgefy was used more during protests since it's available on both iOS and Android, while Briar is Android only.

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[-] ThatGuyNamedZeus@feddit.org 6 points 3 days ago

yes, a lot of people were using those kinds of apps during the free hong kong protests, they go from device-to-device with no internet in between.

No idea what the app is called, but apps like those exist

[-] mrpalmer16@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 days ago

This one works, if you don't mind a little diy and texting only: https://circuitmess.com/products/chatter-lora-communication-device

[-] ThatGuyNamedZeus@feddit.org 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

scratch telegram off that list, put Session messenger there instead.

Telegram isn't private, one guy has the master key to the whole thing

[-] Ju135@lemmings.world 2 points 2 days ago

Yeah to be honest I don't even know how telegram became so popular in the "privacy-oriented world"

[-] CedarA64@lemm.ee 1 points 22 hours ago

It's not owned by Meta and it's relatively well-known. It's older than Signal.

[-] merde@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

wouldn't a cheap walkie-talkie be more practical in that situation?

i remember using this app some time ago ☞ https://f-droid.org/packages/org.jsl.wfwt/

[-] ThatGuyNamedZeus@feddit.org 5 points 3 days ago

wouldn’t a cheap walkie-talkie be more practical in that situation?

That's not secure or encrypted

You can encrypt a radio.

Rattlegram is an app on iOS/Android that alllows converting text to audio and play it over your phone's speaker

Secure Space Encryptor (SSE) (known as Paranoia Text Encryption on iOS) is an Open Source app that can encrypt text.

  1. Use SSE to encrypt text
  2. Copy-Paste the Ciphertext to Rattlegram
  3. Sent it over the radio
  4. On the other end, use Raddlegram to turn the audio back to the ciphertext
  5. Use SSE to decrypt.

Voila! Off-Grid Encrypted communications.

Warning: Encryption over radio is illegal in many countries 😉 (but fuck the law lol, who cares)

[-] ThatGuyNamedZeus@feddit.org 1 points 2 days ago

You can encrypt a radio.

Yes, but that requires you and the one(s) you're communicating with to mod some radios and then to keep those radios secret, which won't be easy once you start using them, especially in a situation like that where the government would probably be scanning those frequencies for exactly that

[-] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Don't need to modify them. Use my method above

Just have extra phones you don't connect to the internet with and install the apps via loading .apk files. You can even use old phones in a dusty shelf somewhere.

Do not transmit from your house, travel to somewhere without cameras transmit your messages, then leave. Avoid using motor vehicles, ride a bike. There are ham radios that are small enough to fit in your pocket. You can get a longer antenna to transmit further.

When you return, wipe the phones. You should have the .apk files stored in an microsd card and create a encrypted volume with a hidden partition, put tax documents in the normal partition, put the .apk files in the hidden partition. Label this volume "Tax [Year]-[Year]" Hide the microsd card somewhere, bur avoid putting it like under a floor board, that'd be too suspicious. Put them in your underwhere or something like that. Its not unusual to encrypt tax documents or hide them. You have plaudible deniability. And your radios are all just normal radios. (Don't save the frequencies in your radio lol)

You should probably also get a Ham radio license as a cover, preferrably you should already have a ham radio license years in advance, before you start to do encrypted transmissions. Get a bunch of radios and have them on display in your home. Don't hide the fact that you have radios Hiding in plainsight is the best way to hide. Make normal, unencrypted communications frequently, just have normal chats with people. (This is assuming your country don't just ban radios outright)

You have to schedule the transmission/receiving times in advance, so your contacts can prepare for it. Choose a random frequency that no one else is using.

Then once a while, you travel to a random location, the further away from your house, the better. You send short bursts of encrypted transmisions. Keep transmissions under 2 minutes.

If they search your home, all they see is a radio enthusiast with a bunch of regular non-modified radios and some old phones in the drawers.

This is best if there are a lot of ham radio people around your area.

There are so many radio enthusiasts. In the US, there are more than 750,000 people with a license in Ham radios, they can't arrest everyone. (Again, this is assuming they don't just ban radios outright)

You could chance your frequency to those used by walkie talkies. That is a lower range, but also broadens the possible perpetrators, since walkie talkies are everywhere, they are in many stores like walmarts, bestbuys, targets... etc...

[-] f@ieji.de 2 points 3 days ago

@Ju135 Briar over WiFi or Bluetooth.

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this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2025
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