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[-] Gayhitler@lemmy.ml 30 points 16 hours ago

The safety thing is 100% true but only part of the picture.

E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

China has many, many more electric vehicles than any other country and a ton of electricity production to run them. At some point it’s gonna become important to save the lithium batteries for the stuff that needs that high density power.

Maybe these better chemistries that will replace lithium are just around the corner. I certainly don’t count unhatched chickens.

[-] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 9 points 3 hours ago

Makes sense. Thanks, Gayhitler.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 6 points 6 hours ago

E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

Actually, ebikes need energy density the most. They tend to not have fast public charging. A lighter ebike has huge advantages, if only for maneuvering a couple of stairs or over a log, but also in suspension and handling + a huge difference in range/acceleration.

For an EV, you don't need "race car" performance, and heavy chemistries are ok. Bike performance just gets a huge boost from relatively minor cost to improve weight/range and performance.

[-] JordanZ@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

EV’s already weigh more than most of their ICE equivalents. I don’t think we want even heavier chemistries in them. You could reduce the battery capacity to keep the weight down but then it’s a double hit to range.

Heck a Model S weighs more than a fair number of F150’s on the road.

Model S: 4,323-4,960 lbs

F150: 4,021-5,540 lbs

[-] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 10 points 10 hours ago

Wait, what? I drain my battery every day. I need more energy density, not less. I do use my bike for long trips, driving a car during rush hour sucks, parking fees are insanely high and parking spots are rare. I sold my car and do everything by electric bike. But after 2 hours of cycling at 32km/h I need to charge.

[-] Gayhitler@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 hours ago

I meant the ~300 mile ranges common in electric cars. That’s a long trip. Plus if the car rolls to a stop by the side of the road you just gotta have it towed or charge it up in the field somehow, electric bikes have pedals.

It sucks to pedal a heavy ass ebike but you can do it in a pinch to get where you need to go.

[-] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

Yeah, have fun peddling a heavy as fuck ebike when you're 1 hour 32km/h drive away from home. That's over 2h of super heavy cycling because you're going super slow.

[-] Gayhitler@lemmy.ml 1 points 45 minutes ago

I have. It sucks but it’s possible and because I live in a mountainous area I avoid that problem by using less assist so everything lasts longer.

The broader point I was trying to make is that If you’re trying to allocate the limited raw materials to the types of transport that benefit people the most then pushing e-bikes to lead acid makes a lot of sense. Yeah, the bikes could benefit from a more power dense battery, but they have backup pedals and ultimately their rider is the majority of the loaded bikes weight.

Electric cars and trucks weigh at least ten times what a person does and are generally used for longer distances than e-bikes so it makes more sense to use very energy dense batteries in them.

Again, I’m speaking from a position that recognizes the proliferation of electric vehicles in China and recognizes that the raw materials used to make lithium batteries are finite and in high demand, not from the position of trying to optimize the e-bike.

[-] Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 9 points 8 hours ago

Also isn't lead acid heavy as fuck for the energy stored? The difference there is more noticeable on a bike.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 points 6 hours ago

It's heavy and bursty. It's really not great for sustained energy discharge, which is why it's used as a starter and not for hybrid engines at runtime.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 1 points 2 hours ago

I'm hoping sodium ion takes over the ebike market. It's less energy dense then the very best lithium batteries, but most ebikes aren't using the very best lithium batteries, anyway. They're cheaper and alleviate the safety concerns (which are mostly overblown, anyway).

[-] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 11 points 13 hours ago

I don't think you realize just how fast lead acid batteries deteriorate when using their smaller charge capacities. In cars and many electronics they are used because they can be shamelessly charged to 100%, and they are supposed to maintain 100% or close to it. They require constant monitoring to be stored properly in a way that lasts. Using them up below 50% will decrease their lifespan significantly. Lithium batteries are quite different, they shouldn't be charged to 100% but in turn they can use a greater amount of their charge while holding more of it without significant deterioration. They have significantly longer lifespans when used properly. Before we had gasoline cars we had electric cars that used lead acid batteries, there's a reason they stopped being used.

What China wants to do is eliminate the older lithium ebikes because they were built with barely any safety regulation. To do this, they need to offer a cheaper option to their citizens, and the only way they can essentially do this without the original problem persisting is using lead acid batteries, because even a cheap lead acid battery with a cheap charger isn't going to fail spectacularly like the lithium ones. LiFePO4 are far safer than lithium while still having higher energy densities, but you won't see those get promoted because they would be costlier.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 1 points 6 hours ago

They should offer upgrade to newer lithium ebikes, LFP and sodium ion is not ideal for ebikes, but way better than SLA. Standards for BMS and pack soldering, and possibly a metal casing (like Lectric XP bikes) for holding battery, and metal case for home charging. There are safety standard designations (UL) used in US markets that may or may not be cash grabs, but seems like a good approach.

[-] Acters@lemmy.world 1 points 12 hours ago

I know right, they are cheaping out because why bother subsidizing new bikes when trading in an old bike? Just sell a cheap shittier e bike. If only the citizens were able to pay the government some cash to help make their community more safe and better than before. /s

[-] DudeImMacGyver@sh.itjust.works 43 points 1 day ago
[-] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 3 points 14 hours ago

Yeah, they should have just gone to the frontier of technology with carbon-air cells. It's weird, right? I thought China was a first mover in tech.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 hours ago

No, they copy first movers.

[-] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 1 points 31 minutes ago

No, they copy first movers.

the joked passed so far over the head of sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works that most observers thought it was an aeolian dust particle trapped in the outmost jetstream

[-] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 12 points 1 day ago

The headline means newly manufactured e-bikes with lead acid batteries.

[-] Ajen@sh.itjust.works 8 points 17 hours ago

That doesn't explain why the new bikes have older technology than the bikes they're urging people to trade in.

[-] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 1 points 3 hours ago

The article provides a decent explanation.

[-] Nytarsha@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 16 hours ago

It's in the article:

Over the last decade or so, China has seen a shift from older AGM batteries, which are heavy and bulky, toward lighter and longer-lasting lithium-ion batteries.

However, safety concerns regarding rare yet dangerous lithium-ion battery fires have put a pause on that proliferation. The government instituted new safety standards for lithium-ion batteries in e-bikes last year, but there’s also been a major pushback toward AGM batteries for the domestic market.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 3 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

Do you know that LiFePO4 cells are the same price (in Europe), longer-lasting, lighter and safer than traction lead-acid ones? They pretty much have no disadvantages to lead-acid, and the need of a BMS (and heater if needing to charge below freezing or run below -4 °F/-20 °C) is no problem since those are a fraction of the cells' price. The only reason I see behind this move would be acute lithium shortage in China.

[-] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 3 points 13 hours ago

From what I can tell, lead acid batteries in Europe have taxes applied to them to pay for recycling. Other places don’t have these taxes so lead acid batteries are very cheap there.

Having said that, I watched a video of a guy in Bangladesh recycling lead acid batteries by hand just using simple tools and a pot to melt the lead over a wood fire and a simple mold to pour the lead plates.

It’s a very basic, easy thing to do. It’s just labour intensive so it ends up very expensive if you have to pay Europeans to do it.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 3 points 12 hours ago

Lead acid is LITERALLY the oldest known rechargeable battery type so I am not surprised you can make them with ancient tools if you're also OK with 19th century "safety standards".

[-] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago

The process is simple and simple enough to do safely with automatic equipment without exposing workers directly to the lead. However Europe seems intent on phasing out lead acid batteries completely via suppression of demand with taxes.

Lead acid batteries truly are an example of an old and highly reliable technology with some tradeoffs. Yes, everyone knows lead is toxic, however modern battery designs are very well sealed so they never leak. The other tradeoff is that lead is very heavy such that lead acid batteries are too heavy for electric car use. However this last tradeoff doesn’t matter so much for stationary (such as a household) or low power (such as a motorcycle or ebike) use. In fact I would go so far as to argue that lead acid batteries are safer than lithium for some uses due to the latter’s fire risks.

Lithium batteries are not simple to recycle. They’re full of plastic which is wrapped in many fine layers like a roll of cling-film that’s been baked together. To recycle they probably have to be burned and the lithium re-smelted from them and then remanufactured in an energy and materials-intensive process.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 1 points 5 hours ago

I recently upgraded my grandma's scooter to LFP from lead-acid. The longetivity is still just a promise for her but the performance is so much better she's not going back.

[-] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 3 points 13 hours ago

Because new items can still use old technologies if it makes more sense to do so?

A 2025 vehicle with a manual radio sold for $30,000 might still sell better than a 2020 vehicle with a touchscreen dash for $25,000

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 53 points 1 day ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

However, safety concerns regarding rare yet dangerous lithium-ion battery fires have put a pause on that proliferation.

Urging citizens to buy new and inferior instead of increasing safety standards?

I'm Swiss (europe) and it's common knowledge here that chinese imported transportation devices can be russian roulette to use.

[-] pycorax@lemmy.world 9 points 18 hours ago

I'm Singaporean and we've had a ton of apartments burnt down because of these imported Chinese ebikes already.

[-] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 12 points 1 day ago

Are AGM batteries really inferior? Sure, they're heavier, but they aren't vulnerable to autoignition and thermal runaway. They also contain less conflict minerals than other types of batteries.

[-] hovercat 31 points 1 day ago

AGM are absolutely awful compared to even the absolute worst lithium batteries, and won't last long at all if regularly cycled below even 50% SoC. LFP chemistries are a bit worse for energy density compared to NCA/NCM chemistries, but they don't contain any nickel or cobalt, and won't autoignite in the same way other chemistries will. Absolutely ridiculous they're suggesting lead batteries over better lithium options.

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[-] cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de 83 points 1 day ago

I thought they would have been pushing for sodium ion batteries instead. Lead acid batteries are a bad choice for anything that needs to be cycled frequently.

[-] Venator@lemmy.nz 1 points 40 minutes ago

Traded-in e-bikes will be sent for dismantling and recycling

Maybe they need the batteries for something else...

[-] Chozo@fedia.io 39 points 1 day ago

They're a also bad choice for e-bikes because they're heavy as hell. I had an e-bike a while back that had two lead acid batteries, and they were about 15 lbs each. The added weight made it almost impossible to go uphill with the motor, so you'd have to pedal a much heavier bike up hills. Not a good experience at all.

[-] Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works 54 points 1 day ago

Last part of the article basically says sodium ion batteries are where they're going next.

[-] jeena@piefed.jeena.net 37 points 1 day ago

I mean there are quite many fires in China started by those e-bikes but I thought it was because of bad quality.

[-] rumba@lemmy.zip 40 points 1 day ago

There are chemistries that are less volatile But they're less energy dense as well.

The biggest problem I see on most of the Chinese stuff is a lack of safety in the battery packs. They're just mass-producing cells and shoving them together, It wouldn't be very expensive to put a small battery management system on every cell. Watch each cell for voltage and temperature. Have them shut down when they're out of safety margins

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 26 points 1 day ago

LiFePO4 is still superior to traction lead-acid in pretty much every way: energy density, safety, time and cycle life, internal resistance... Yes, they need a BMS but those are very cheap and lots of batteries have them built-in. In fact, I was unable to find 4-cell packs without a BMS inside so I could put two of them in series and balance the 8S cells with each other using an active BMS of my choice, and ended up ordering individual cells and screwing them together.

[-] noride@lemm.ee 20 points 1 day ago

Also worth mentioning LiFePO4 is like half the weight of lead acid and it's far less susceptible to voltage sag under load. The only area I think LiFePO4 runs into challenges is the inability to charge below freezing. Lead acid is a real workhorse when it comes to the extremes.

[-] chaosCruiser@futurology.today 14 points 1 day ago

The article also mentions sodium ion batteries as an alternative. Can’t wait to see how they perform in real life.

[-] jabathekek@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 day ago

IIRC there is already an e-scooter you can buy that has a sodium ion battery. From a chinese company (ofc) that I forget the name of. It touts fast charging and basically performs just fin down to -20C.

[-] SeekPie@lemm.ee 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

This one maybe?

48 V and a capacity of 24 Ah

400 W power and a 25 km/h top speed.

They're from $450 to $590, so amazingly priced.

Fun fact: it would not be classified as a e-bike nor a moped in Estonia because it's less than 1000w and max speed is no more than 25 km/h, but an mini-moped, which doesn't need a license to drive, but you have to be older than 16 and need to wear at least a bicycle helmet.

[-] jabathekek@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 day ago

Estonia

Bestonia

[-] chaosCruiser@futurology.today 3 points 1 day ago

This is big news. Why isn’t everyone already talking about SIBs? Also, the 145 Wh/kg sits neatly between LFP and NMC. As long as the other properties are reasonable, it should stand a chance against NMC.

[-] 5in1k@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago

Less than half in my experience. I bought two 100ah 12v lifepos and they are under 30 lbs. 23lbs I believe. I have a lead acid deep cycle of the same power and it’s like 80-90.

[-] cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 day ago

If you need to charge LiFePO4 batteries below freezing, you can add a heater to the pack. There are even some batteries available now with built in heaters that come on automatically below freezing.

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago

From what i know the issue seems to be too lax safety margins in packaging, to increase density.

[-] buzz86us@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

Ehh they need to do sodium batteries

[-] buzz86us@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Damn I'd have atleast waited until sodium ion was built out

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this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2025
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